TromboneChat

Has anyone made a video comparing the differences in sound between a standard slide, and the same model slide (or similar model) without sleeves? (preferably with the same bell & Mouthpiece)

I'd be very interested to hear a video of this back to back.

If you have the tools needed to make this video, please do!

The problem is there are very few slides that are exactly the same minus the sleeves. Plus they are different slides anyway!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:29 pm The problem is there are very few slides that are exactly the same minus the sleeves. Plus they are different slides anyway!

C'mon Aidan, make a video comparing your LT50 vs a standard 50

I have two Eddy bass slides in dual bore, one with oversleeves and one without. But one has a yellow crook and the are probably two decades apart in production.

Hey, don’t neglect the pseudo-oversleeves on some model of Yamaha!

Assuming all other features of the 2 slides are the same..

A sleeve-less slide will give slightly quicker response, slightly broader sound, but also "lighter" sound. Compared to the sleeves, which induce a little more core, focus and "density" and require slightly more effort to achieve immediacy of response.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:47 pm Hey, don’t neglect the pseudo-oversleeves on some model of Yamaha!

King trombones also use the "drawn-in" over sleeves on pretty much all their models. I think they changed over in the 50s or 60s.

You can get most Shires handslides as an LW model, which are without sleeves. Weight is a noticeable difference.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Tue Aug 09, 2022 6:29 am Assuming all other features of the 2 slides are the same..

A sleeve-less slide will give slightly quicker response, slightly broader sound, but also "lighter" sound. Compared to the sleeves, which induce a little more core, focus and "density" and require slightly more effort to achieve immediacy of response.

I second this. I have a Bach 50 with two handslides, one sleeveless and the other with sleeves, standard Bach leadpipes. Both have a nickel crook. I prefer the sleeved one. It feels more “stable” than the sleeveless one: while the “target” of the initial start to the note is narrower (the “slot”), it is easier to maintain a stable timbre to the sound throughout.

Also, when making as crescendo or decrescendo, it’s easier to produce a consistent timbre, and it’s easier to make the dynamic more gradual. On the sleeveless slide, the dynamic can easily “jump” quickly from f to fff if I’m not paying attention.

It’s kind of like a Cadillac compared to a Miata. The Cadillac takes a lot of gas to get up to speed, but once it’s moving, forward momentum keeps propelling it forward. The Miata is quick and nimble, but easy to over-steer or fly off the road if you’re not careful. I tend to use the sleeveless in jazz and commercial settings, and the sleeved in legit settings.

Anyone have experience getting the best of both worlds AKA removing only one sleeve?

BrianJohnston wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 1:08 pm Anyone have experience getting the best of both worlds AKA removing only one sleeve?

Of course I have, because why wouldn't I?

My favorite slide right now is a Yamaha 8820 slide that I had a Yamaha .525 upper put on it and modified to take Shires leadpipes & fit in Shires bells. So it's a 525 ("light" weight)/547 (w/ Nickel oversleeve). I'd actually rather it be the opposite because I tend to prefer not having oversleeves because the slide is slightly narrower. Easier to fit between my fingers. I really like the way this one turned out. Sort of an in between where it's lighter but still has some breadth of sound. I'm not sure exactly how much of an in-between it is because I didn't remove the oversleeve from the upper... it never had one.

I have a theory that most of the benefit you get from an oversleeve comes from the upper slide. Your hand is already touching the lower slide. So that's going to probably dampen the vibrations somewhat one way or the other. I suspect that some of what causes the difference between the light & regular weight slides is actually the perception because it's so close to where you originate the buzz.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Aug 12, 2022 3:01 pm
I have a theory that most of the benefit you get from an oversleeve comes from the upper slide. Your hand is already touching the lower slide. So that's going to probably dampen the vibrations somewhat one way or the other. I suspect that some of what causes the difference between the light & regular weight slides is actually the perception because it's so close to where you originate the buzz.

Interesting. If what you’re saying is correct, wouldn’t the oversleeve on the 2nd yard (the “up” slide) be shorter, not longer?

I’ve often wondered why Bach (and Shires) chose different lengths for the oversleeves. Nickel doesn’t erode as quickly as brass, and the right hand grip tends to erode the slide over time—i.e., the oversleeve on the 2nd yard is more of a guard or protector.

I have two thoughts about it: 1. Bach (and Shires) did some experimenting and beta-testing with trombonists, and they preferred the different length oversleeves that way. 2. It’s a crossover from his trumpet designs.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:45 pm I’ve often wondered why Bach (and Shires) chose different lengths for the oversleeves. Nickel doesn’t erode as quickly as brass, and the right hand grip tends to erode the slide over time—i.e., the oversleeve on the 2nd yard is more of a guard or protector.

I have two thoughts about it: 1. Bach (and Shires) did some experimenting and beta-testing with trombonists, and they preferred the different length oversleeves that way. 2. It’s a crossover from his trumpet designs.

I would guess it might be simpler than that... early Bachs have equal length, long oversleeves. Then they wanted to reduce weight a bit, so the hand protector side stayed usefully long, and the upper got shorter.

That theory makes a lot of sense to me. I’m not sure why the oversleeves are different length to be honest. I do wish that my Yamaha Frankenstein slide were the opposite but I’m also not convinced that I’d be able to tell the difference between what I have and a lightweight slide. I do know that it plays very well though.

I’m actually a little surprised with how is trombonists are with materials that we don’t see things like half slide length oversleeves in nickel or bronze or copper. Or slides that have three materials - one for upper, another for lower, and yet another for crook

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Aug 13, 2022 7:52 pm That theory makes a lot of sense to me. I’m not sure why the oversleeves are different length to be honest. I do wish that my Yamaha Frankenstein slide were the opposite but I’m also not convinced that I’d be able to tell the difference between what I have and a lightweight slide. I do know that it plays very well though.

I’m actually a little surprised with how is trombonists are with materials that we don’t see things like half slide length oversleeves in nickel or bronze or copper. Or slides that have three materials - one for upper, another for lower, and yet another for crook

There are plenty in that last camp. I know a couple of pros that like a little nickel but not a full nickel slide… so, one tube will do.

I can’t play on lightweight slides.. I end up missing attacks all over the place. The weight helps me keep it under control. Could I learn to adapt? Probably, but I’ve never liked the sound better, so why bother to learn it?

Cheers,
Andy