TromboneChat

I'd like to learn a bit about leadpipes. The immediate reason is that I suspect my current leadpipe may be making altissimo register difficult. But in general I would like to know more about why there are leadpipes at all, why interchangeable lead pipes, and some general rules of thumb about how lead pipes work.

My specific issue is that I'm having troubles with high notes while playing my Butler JJ, which came with an Edwards T3 leadpipe. I believe that the Edwards T3 is a probably good choice for the horn and that there's nothing wrong with the one I have; but using the same mouthpiece I usually use, I can pop out Fs at the top of the treble staff on my Carol Brass 2229, which has the same basic numbers as the Butler - 0.508 bore, 8" bell - but I struggle with those notes on the Butler. The thing is, the Butler is much lighter, and my hands and shoulders really like that.

Of course the issue could arise elsewhere - materials, manufacturing idiosyncrasies, mouthpiece, hidden damage, player.

But I still want to know about leadpipes. Thanks in advance.

The T3 is the most open pipe that Edwards makes, and The Carol Brass is a king 3B type instrument, which should have a fairly narrow leadpipe.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 1:48 pm The T3 is the most open pipe that Edwards makes, and The Carol Brass is a king 3B type instrument, which should have a fairly narrow leadpipe.

Thank you for that. Are you suggesting that I might do better with a less open leadpipe for the Butler?

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:15 pm Thank you for that. Are you suggesting that I might do better with a less open leadpipe for the Butler?

I would suggest that.

I have a Butler JJ as well, and I’ve tried a few different pipes on it at this point. For me, the .508 version of the 32h pipe that Brad Close makes has been a nice improvement over the pipe that came with the horn. I have the 32h in copper, nickel, and sterling. They’re all good in different ways, and it has been interesting to try the same pipe design in different materials. I don’t know whether the 32h is more or less open than the T3 (I can see that the 32h is shorter, but I don’t have good tools for measuring the Venturi or tapers), but, dimensions aside, for me it works great.

muschem wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:45 pm I have a Butler JJ as well, and I’ve tried a few different pipes on it at this point. For me, the .508 version of the 32h pipe that Brad Close makes has been a nice improvement over the pipe that came with the horn. I have the 32h in copper, nickel, and sterling. They’re all good in different ways, and it has been interesting to try the same pipe design in different materials. I don’t know whether the 32h is more or less open than the T3 (I can see that the 32h is shorter, but I don’t have good tools for measuring the Venturi or tapers), but, dimensions aside, for me it works great.

Very cool. Thanks!

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 3:22 pm

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 2:15 pm Thank you for that. Are you suggesting that I might do better with a less open leadpipe for the Butler?

I would suggest that.

Thank you!

Shires 1.5 or 2 are my go-to place for new horns and then I try others from there with that as my baseline. Bach pipes are usually in the 1.5ish range, or so I've been told. I have a 32H in the 508 size that works really well on the 3BF its paired with as well.

Thanks, everybody, for your help. I inquired about the custom 32H leadpipe at BrassArk, and unfortunately the wait time is 4 - 5 months right now. That seemed a touch long to wait, so I've ordered an Edwards T2 and we'll see how that goes. They had it in stock, too.

If anyone's up to it, I'd still like to know more about leadpipes - why they are a part of the design and what they are expected to do.

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:19 amIf anyone's up to it, I'd still like to know more about leadpipes - why they are a part of the design and what they are expected to do.

Well, the leadpipe is the transition from the mouthpiece to the bore of the trombone. They are one of the main "choke points" in the design, the others being the throat of the mouthpiece, and the gooseneck of the bell section. Brass instruments all have leadpipes, it's just that with a trombone, you need to put it inside of the inner slide, as you can't really have the slide tube itself be the leadpipe.

There are no hard and fast rules as to what leadpipes work best in what setups. A lot of the designs used were arrived at by experimentation regarding venturi size, distance of the venturi from the front of the pipe, and overall length and taper of the pipe after the venturi.

No hard and fast rules, but there are some rules of thumb. You often hear "Centered" and "Open" be used as poles for a leadpipe. Typically the former have a more gradual taper and the latter have a more rapid taper. There are also differences in overall length that can affect that as well. Short pipes are usually more "open" (which makes sense because you have less overall taper) and longer pipes are usually more "centered" (which likewise makes sense because there is more length of overall taper).

Generally, I find that "open" pipes work well with 2 piece, unsoldered bells. "Centered" pipes work with 1 piece, soldered bells. Those are the two extremes. Then everything else falls somewhere between those. Usually. There are potentially other factors at play: dual bore, openness of the valve, taper of the tuning slide, material of the leadpipe, etc. Some people tend to think that some of those don't make any difference. Others, the opposite. In my personal experience, the nature of the pipe doesn't change the sound inasmuch as it changes how the horn feels, which in turn makes it easier to color the sound in certain ways. So you get an indirect change of the sound.

Thank you, tbonesullivan and Matt K, your answers help a lot.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 11:04 am

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Wed Sep 07, 2022 8:19 amIf anyone's up to it, I'd still like to know more about leadpipes - why they are a part of the design and what they are expected to do.

Well, the leadpipe is the transition from the mouthpiece to the bore of the trombone. They are one of the main "choke points" in the design, the others being the throat of the mouthpiece, and the gooseneck of the bell section. Brass instruments all have leadpipes, it's just that with a trombone, you need to put it inside of the inner slide, as you can't really have the slide tube itself be the leadpipe.

There are no hard and fast rules as to what leadpipes work best in what setups. A lot of the designs used were arrived at by experimentation regarding venturi size, distance of the venturi from the front of the pipe, and overall length and taper of the pipe after the venturi.

Taking a moment on design, at least for trombone pipes, I’m not aware of much variation on the position of the Venturi. They are almost all nominally about 1/2” after the end of the mouthpiece shank. At least, all the ones I’ve ever checked… though admittedly that is mostly large bore and bass pipes. There are a few notable exceptions, but is there a lot of variation in the Venturi placement in small bore pipes?

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu Sep 08, 2022 8:15 pmTaking a moment on design, at least for trombone pipes, I’m not aware of much variation on the position of the Venturi. They are almost all nominally about 1/2” after the end of the mouthpiece shank. At least, all the ones I’ve ever checked… though admittedly that is mostly large bore and bass pipes. There are a few notable exceptions, but is there a lot of variation in the Venturi placement in small bore pipes?

Cheers,
Andy

I may not be remembering things correctly, but I did notice on my Kanstul leadpipes some slight variation in the venturi location compared to the collar between the BB, ML, and MO pipes. It's not much, but I remember Sam Burtis using teflon tape to fine tune the insertion depth, as well as that ADAMS now makes euphoniums with a "variable gap" mouthpiece receiver.

I was also thinking of horns like the King Duo Gravis and Yamaha YBL-613/813/830, which have an insertion depth a few mm more than a "regular" bass trombone. I do however have no idea if the location of the venturi is different compared to the end of a typical mouthpiece however. Definitely a lot to think about.

Does anyone know the type of leadpipe (soldered) in a Yamaha 697z?
Thanks in advance.

A bit of a tangent, but what would you expect from having a screw in leadpipe that plays great (in this case a Shires MD+ .508) soldered in? Could that improve or ruin anything?

It would keep you from changing it, which some view as a positive. I tend to pull mine and let the exterior dry out frequently and then clean it off. That’s… very much unnessary. I just baby my horns to some degree.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Sep 09, 2022 6:41 pm It would keep you from changing it, which some view as a positive. I tend to pull mine and let the exterior dry out frequently and then clean it off. That’s… very much unnessary. I just baby my horns to some degree.

I don’t know that it’s unnecessary. When I got my Butler, a previous owner had clearly never pulled the leadpipe out, and there was a really disturbing amount of plaque in the upper inner slide. I managed to get it reasonably clean. And now, after I’m done playing for the day, I always take out the leadpipe and thoroughly dry out both the leadpipe and the entire horn. If nothing else, it makes for less frequent trips to the repairman.

It’s unnecessary in that it would be years (probably) before the corrosion that gets trapped between the inner and leadpipe wore through. But yes, I agree which is why I frequently do so

Reedman1 wrote: ↑Tue Sep 06, 2022 1:30 pm I'd like to learn a bit about leadpipes. The immediate reason is that I suspect my current leadpipe may be making altissimo register difficult. But in general I would like to know more about why there are leadpipes at all, why interchangeable lead pipes, and some general rules of thumb about how lead pipes work.

The leadpipe is essentially an extension of the tapered backbore of the mouthpiece.The shape of the leadpipe alters the sound wave, just as the shape of the mouthpiece does. Each combination of mouthpiece/leadpipe will have a different effect on how the horn plays. It is possible that a different leadpipe/mouthpiece combination will improve the altissimo on a given horn, but all other aspects of the sound and playability will also be affected. How can you predict in advance ? Except for some broad generalizations, you can't. There are no formulas. It's all empirical. As Sam Burtis used to say on the old TTF, "Try everything. Use what works."
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