TromboneChat

I saw this on eBay today. I wonder if the Vincent Bach Corp. knows aboout it.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/403950035706?h ... R5Sk3uqFYQ

It doesn’t look like a 39, just the standard Chinese generic knockoff.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.

chromebone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:47 am It doesn’t look like a 39, just the standard Chinese generic knockoff.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.

They stopped making the 39?

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:33 amThey stopped making the 39?

I can't find one in stock anywhere, and the Bach website doesn't list them at all.

Yet they STILL list the 50B2 with non-split triggers.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:33 am

chromebone wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:47 am It doesn’t look like a 39, just the standard Chinese generic knockoff.
Conn-Selmer stopped making the 39, so they probably don’t care anyway.

They stopped making the 39?

The 39 sounds great, compact and clear, but the intonation is an absolute bear and it’s relatively small. The Conn 34/36h’s are larger and are easier to play in tune.

Didn't know "Bach" was a name you could TM. Vincent Bach, maybe

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:24 pm Didn't know "Bach" was a name you could TM. Vincent Bach, maybe

No way you could get a general trademark on the name "Bach" - but it may be that one could (and maybe has) trademark the Bach name as it applies to brass instruments..

Bach® - a REGISTERED TRADEMARK (with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) for musical instruments (or at least for brass instruments). Over the decades, Vincent Bach, then Selmer, now Conn-Selmer have been very diligent in properly using (and I presume protecting) their trademark. The Chinese alto trombone vendor is taking a serious risk by using the Bach name in this manner, and will be shut down if Conn-Selmer perceives them as a threat.

There was a Chinese label called "Back" at one time. The Chinese were putting out a lot of products with false names (Selman is another that comes to mind). The Chinese have had a very casual relationship with trademark law in the past.

My favorite was the "Mount Vernon" brand mouthpieces.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:33 pm Bach® - a REGISTERED TRADEMARK (with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) for musical instruments (or at least for brass instruments). Over the decades, Vincent Bach, then Selmer, now Conn-Selmer have been very diligent in properly using (and I presume protecting) their trademark. The Chinese alto trombone vendor is taking a serious risk by using the Bach name in this manner, and will be shut down if Conn-Selmer perceives them as a threat.

I reported it for being counterfeit, which is something any user can do. Usually I end up reporting the NUMEROUS fake Gibson guitars flooding out of China, which are often called Chibsons.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 7:46 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:33 pm Bach® - a REGISTERED TRADEMARK (with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office) for musical instruments (or at least for brass instruments). Over the decades, Vincent Bach, then Selmer, now Conn-Selmer have been very diligent in properly using (and I presume protecting) their trademark. The Chinese alto trombone vendor is taking a serious risk by using the Bach name in this manner, and will be shut down if Conn-Selmer perceives them as a threat.

I reported it for being counterfeit, which is something any user can do.

Great idea - hope that eBay takes appropriate action!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 7:24 pm Didn't know "Bach" was a name you could TM. Vincent Bach, maybe

If the word "Apple" can be a trademark...

Apple as a computer brand is trademarked. They can't now sue you for making apple pies (from apples). Only using the name on a computer and the logo of the apple with a bite out of it are protected. Note that the comic "Foxtrot" has called its imitation Apples "I-Fruit".

What if you made a Johann Sebastian Bach trombone?

Or an Adam's Apple computer?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:39 pm What if you made a Johann Sebastian Bach trombone?

Or an Adam's Apple computer?

The court would likely look at how the similarly-named product was being marketed.

Here's an example of a trademark lawsuit between siblings involving the use of the family name:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm ... story.html

You don't trademark a mere word. You trademark a brand of some sort of object or service. Lots of restrictions apply to the process of obtaining a trademark. Contact an intellectual property attorney for an explanation.

The word "Levi's" is trademarked by Levi Strauss as a brand of clothing. You could sell Levi's cookies without a problem - until someone might succeed in trademarking that brand of food products.

$921 shipped for a Jinbao alto is nuts!

One of the problems with the Chinese knockoffs was that they used a similar name using a similar font and similar advertising copy. It was intended to confuse the buyer into thinking it was something it was not. Had they created a completely different look for the Back or Selman musical instrument, it might have been more acceptable. Instead, the name was written in the same font as the original.

That's the point of John L.'s article. Had the junior Gallo created a different look for his cheese advertising it would have been acceptable. Instead, he tried to make it look like it was part of the Gallo Winery business.

Brand <> Word

A word can be a subset of a brand.

The US Patent and Trademark Office has this to say

A trademark can be any word, phrase, symbol, design, or a combination of these things that identifies your goods or services. It’s how customers recognize you in the marketplace and distinguish you from your competitors.

That sure looks like you can trademark a word but I suppose it is possible the USPTO has no lawyers vetting their statements.

There is another alto offered as a Bach alto
https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p ... o-trombone

heinzgries wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:05 am There is another alto offered as a Bach alto
https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p ... o-trombone

That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.

Someone from England is selling a cheap chinese horn labeled as a Conn alto trombone...

Both Rosehill and Prozone are well respected UK retailers having that offer. So I would think they are genuine, and offered as entry level.

StephenK wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:01 am Both Rosehill and Prozone are well respected UK retailers having that offer. So I would think they are genuine, and offered as entry level.

You mean "genuine" as in a student model licensed by Conn-Selmer to a Chinese factory? If the mark "Conn" is trademarked, and not licensed, the product is counterfeit.

StephenK wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 8:01 am Both Rosehill and Prozone are well respected UK retailers having that offer. So I would think they are genuine, and offered as entry level.

I think you may be right. I see listings from many different shops for that model trombone. There are photos where it appears to have the usual Bach logo engraved on the bell. I only see listings from European shops, though, so I guess Conn-Selmer decided to only offer this item in Europe, for whatever reason. It certainly is not unprecedented for Conn-Selmer to sell student level instruments made in China.

Edit: To avoid confusion, I'll point out that we're talking about the link posted in the body of this thread, NOT the OP's link to the eBay listing.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:22 am

heinzgries wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:05 am There is another alto offered as a Bach alto
https://www.rosehillinstruments.co.uk/p ... o-trombone

That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.

The listing is not "egregious" if Conn-Selmer has either contracted the Chinese factory to make and sell Bach-labeled trombones, or merely licensed them to use the trademarked Bach name. Both are O.K., and not trademark violations.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:11 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:22 am

That one is much more egregious. Says "Vincent Bach" and "Conn-Selmer," follows what could pass for Bach model number conventions, pictured bracing/ferrules broadly look similar in style to Bach.

The listing is not "egregious" if Conn-Selmer has either contracted the Chinese factory to make and sell Bach-labeled trombones, or merely licensed them to use the trademarked Bach name. Both are O.K., and not trademark violations.

I guess if Conn-Selmer has introduced a Chinese-made student level alto trombone without announcing it or listing it anywhere on their website? That would be news to me, and I expect to most other people as well.

Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:27 pm Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?

There’s a Conn Selmer euphonium somewhere out in the world that is clearly jin bao or similar. They look nice, playability is questionable.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Thu Nov 03, 2022 12:27 pm
Has anyone heard of Conn-Selmer introducing new imported student horns, especially in the alto range?

I think they do it all the time. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?t=19593. It was a student trombone model that they hadn't sold before. Seems like they are constantly changing their offerings. I'm not aware of them having a student alto before, but that's not really a reason they couldn't do so now.