TromboneChat

Hi!
I was hoping to get some insight into purchasing a bass trombone for my 16 year old. This is going to sound a bit crazy, but he has only been playing for 8 months. He is a junior in HS and is doing exceptionally well. He practices EVERY single day! He is now asking for a bass to help him prep for college.

A local shop has a Conn 112H in like new condition for 2796.50 It is a double rotor system (whatever that means). I played the sax and violin. So, I am a bit clueless. Is this a good horn at a good price? Or should I shop around a bit more.
I am told that for college, a double valve, bass horn is optimal. Any info would be great! Thanks!

Personally I would buy a used horn. More value for the money and less in value loss if you resell

/Tom

That price is not the worst on the planet, but it is MUCH more worth to buy a used instrument and then get something more expensive and customized for him way down the road.

Is there a classified section on this site?

Buying a used trombone means you need a more technical eye. There are many things that can go wrong with a regular trombone, and 3x as many with a bass trombone.

Yes, a 112h is a decent horn. ~$2.8k is kinda high for a used one, but if it's in really good shape, it's much better than a chinese horn, and cheaper than other new pro models. See if you can get a second opinion from a local player.

Hi and welcome!

The Conn 112H is a professional level trombone although not as highly regarded as others. Still, a very good bass trombone and perfectly good for college. The price seems a bit high, though.

A double trigger trombone means that in addition to the slide, there are two valves operated by the left hand. The first valve is in F. There are a lot of options for the 2nd valve:

- The second valve can be set up so it depends on the 1st valve to be in use. This is called a "Dependent" valve system.
- The second valve can be set up so it can be used even without the 1st valve. This is called an "Independent' valve system.

The second valve can be pitched in a flat E (only on a dependent; this is the original setup for a 2 valve bass), or Eb, or D. Note that we talk about dependent valves as a 3-way combination: Bb/F/D, for example. This is because you can't use the 2nd valve by itself.

On an Independent system, the 2nd valve can be pitched in G (combination is Eb) or Gb (combination is D). In this case the instrument is called Bb/F/G/Eb or Bb/F/Gb/D. This is because the 2nd valve can be used by itself to give additional positions for a given note.

The Conn 112H is an Independent bass in Bb/F/Gb/D. This combination is far and away the most popular, although there are advocates for Bb/F/G/Eb and dependent in Bb/F/Eb or Bb/F/D. There is no preferred setup and your son should get used to whatever you get him.

The valve actuators (called "triggers") originally were both worked by the left thumb. Some triggers even had rollers much like your saxophone. We generally prefer to have the triggers split so that the thumb works the F trigger and one finger works the 2nd valve (whatever it is).

One stupid question: has your son even learned the single F attachment? If not the transition to a double trigger horn will be VERY confusing at first. He should learn to use the F trigger before moving on to the 2nd trigger. I would strongly suggest talking to his teacher about the best course of action. He's not going to be able to become proficient enough on a double trigger bass without some kind of lessons from someone.

There are other good instruments to consider:

Dependent:
Bach 50B2
Conn 62H
Getzen 1062
Holton TR-180
King 6B (Duo Gravis)
Yamaha YBL 612, 620

Independent:
Bach 50B3
Benge 290
Conn 73H, 62HI
Getzen 1052
Holton TR-181
King 7B, 8B
Yamaha YBL 613, 630

I have not listed the "boutique" brands: Edwards, Rath, and Shires. Nor have I listed any Chinese made instruments. Again, if his teacher says these are the best choice I will defer to the teacher.

Look in our Classifieds to find other used instruments probably at better prices than the Conn you were looking at.

Good luck to your son.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:33 am Hi and welcome!
...
... defer to the teacher.
Look in our Classifieds to find other used instruments probably at better prices than the Conn you were looking at.
Good luck to your son.

Great summary, Bruce, and good advice all around.

"No" on the 112H. For that kinda money, you can get a GREAT horn!

I would slow down though. Talk to his instructor and find out when he/she wants your son to get. A single-valve bass trombone might make more sense for now...

Devil's advocate on starting with single and going to double.

I did that. Most of the players I know did that. And MOST of us make FAR from optimal use of that second valve.

Starting with TWO valves, and learning to make a LOT of use of the second one, will have big changes in neuro-muscular patterns, mostly for the good.

Yeah, it could be dicey picking up single rotor tenor after. But making those adjustments should be relatively simple.

As noted above, though, this all depends on the teacher(s) involved. Blair Bollinger's book is good, as far as it goes, but still a tough row to hoe as a high school self study.

My final note (I promise) is that NOW is the time to start thinking about over-use injury. There is no such thing as a light double rotor bass trombone. Some are less heavy. So, SOME kind of regular shoulder, back, and neck exercises should do in with practice time BEFORE the injuries start.

The Conn 73H is, of course, dependent - unless modified.

Are you and your son certain, after only 8 months of playing trombone (if I understand correctly) that you want him to specialize in bass trombone?

Here's another option.
Still in High School.
Looking at college.

I had a LOT of gigs in those years that were hard on my horn. At the time I wished I had a "beater" I could still make work well, and save my "good" horn for better gigs and studies.

Mack Brass https://mackbrass.com/tb831l-bass-trombone sells their branded version of a Chinese double rotor clone of a Yamaha for generally under $1,200. I consider that a lot of cash, but I would be MUCH happier with THAT at a football game than having my Duo Gravis at such risk.

Just a thought.

sherienaquin1 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:59 am I am told that for college, a double valve, bass horn is optimal.

Can you please clarify: Have you been told that "for college a bass horn is optimal"? I don't think there would be wide agreement on that. (But if you're just trying to decide between a single vs double valve bass then please ignore my comment.)

dbwhitaker wrote: ↑Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:20 pm

sherienaquin1 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:59 am I am told that for college, a double valve, bass horn is optimal.

Can you please clarify: Have you been told that "for college a bass horn is optimal"? I don't think there would be wide agreement on that. (But if you're just trying to decide between a single vs double valve bass then please ignore my comment.)

I was told that having a bass trombone makes one more marketable. Perhaps he would have a better chance of making the cut with a bass vs. a tenor? This is just what my son's band director said. Clearly, I'm trying to gather up as much info as possible, which landed me here. Thanks for the input!

having a bass trombone AND being able to play it makes you more marketable.

Just remember. For each bass trombone chair there are two tenor trombone chairs. It seems that the balance between kids who think they are bass trombone players and kids who just play "trombone" tends to favor the "trombone" players. Want to be versatile? Have an instrument that can cover all the parts and be able to play all of them on it. Traditionally this has been a symphonic bore with an F-attachment that can E-pull. Is it ideal? No. This instrument is actually too big to play lead Jazz bone and too fragile to trust marching on the football field at halftime.

Another thing is that bass trombone players tend to be people who like playing the bass line. No melody. No counter-melody. Mostly stuff like the tubas play.

Stranger things have happened than than giving an eighth month player a professional double valve bass: And the rest was history. Stay away from Kings with both valves actuated by the left thumb. If he is 5 feet eight inches or less and weighs 140 pounds or less, consider getting a King 3B or 3B+ with f attachment or Bach 36B. Or consider it anyway. Tell him he needs to learn to walk before he tries to run. Those are always good horns to have around, anyway, or trade it for a bass trombone when he is ready. Basketball pep bands are pick up bands and you never know what part is put in front of you, including euphonium. Don’t march with any f attachment horn unless he is playing Disneyland with BurgerBob.

Bruce is more astute and well versed than I am. However, I have (recently) played third (and fourth) on a bass trombone in a concert band. I encountered segments that were the melody, were voiced with the trumpets or euphoniums, and the inevitable tuba-ish solo. Depending on the band and the director, it is not all gloom and doom.

Last but not least: it is great that you have a very supportive attitude and that he is working very hard. Have a little faith. I showed up at college after encountering meager playing opportunities for three previous years. I landed a full academic scholarship and they taught me how to march from ground zero. It was harrowing. And I had a great experience.

Best of luck.

Not sure why, but playing bass trombones seems to be the "trendy" thing among youngsters in certain parts of the country. As Bruce noted, the playing opportunities for those who are solely bass trombonists are somewhat limited. I strongly endorse his advice to get your son going on a tenor trombone with F-attachment (either smaller [e.g., King 3BF], medium-bore [e.g., Bach 36B], or large bore [variety of choices - but they are bigger and heavier] depending on his physique and preference). Such a trombone will cover 97%+ of the literature he will encounter through high school.

Also, as noted, most of us (other than those with budgets sufficient to cover potential damage repairs) would also recommend against marching (football field, drill shows, etc.) with an F-attachment trombone. Especially not a bass trombone. If he has a trombone teacher (also highly recommended), he should follow the teacher's advice!

Hi all, I am new here and just wanted to drop a comment. I appreciate all of the comments in this thread. BGuttman comment really breaks it down. I've been considering getting myself a bass trombone to learn on my own. As an adult, not in any bands, I would want something to just mess around with. Some great info here, thank you

sherienaquin1 wrote: ↑Wed Nov 02, 2022 2:23 pm I was told that having a bass trombone makes one more marketable.

The original poster has probably already made their decision. But I can't help think that somewhere along the chain, bass trombone got conflated with symphonic tenor. I'm imagining a high school band section where everyone else has 6 years' experience, and has "upgraded" to a Bb/F .547. And our protagonist is sitting there with a beginner .500. Peer pressure (and the director) is pushing him larger. Maybe the phrase "more like a bass trombone" was uttered. Then the parents (or a salesman) reinterpret that as a desire for bass trombone.

Do we still use the phrase tenor/bass trombone? I think my 88H was marketed that way.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:33 am ...

Excellent overall and helpful description, I think, but ...

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:33 am The first valve is in F.

Well, mostly -- and almost certainly for anything the OP is likely to encounter.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:33 am He should learn to use the F trigger before moving on to the 2nd trigger

I do disagree with this (but see below!) -- feeling that it is just entrenched trombone pedagogy dogma. But I don't want to start a fight about it. Being totally untrained in trombone, the first horn I got was an indy bass, and so learned to use both valves as part of the whole approach, rather than as part of a process of using a straight trombone, and then an F-attachment trombone, and then an F/G/Gb/E/Eb/D/Db ... whatever double valve trombone.

Also, just because you have a second valve, doesn't mean that you HAVE to use it (though of course you SHOULD). However, none of these quibbles are of any help to the OP.

I would go one of two ways: (1) a good used horn, as has been suggested, or (2) one of the relatively common "clone" horns (usually Yamaha clones, it seems) from such places as Wessex, Mack Brass, etc. for around $1,000. Of those two choices I'd favor (1) IF the "good used horn" could reliably be found and didn't exceed the ~$1,000 clone price (at least by much).

However, there is something else to be said about moving to a double-valve bass, and it lies in an observation made by Doug Yeo along the lines that the double-valve bass trombone was not designed for a human to hold. And each bass trombone has its own issues involving balance and grip. And you often can't tell how serious or problematic those are without some significant experience (not forgetting that you'll be adding rather large mutes to the mix). So as a purely practical matter, and unless the student already has experience with a single-valve bass and so has developed a "feel" for potential problems and what is desired in a larger horn ... it might be smarter to find a decent single-valve bass to transition to before making the double-valve leap. Also less expensive. Just a thought.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:23 am Do we still use the phrase tenor/bass trombone? I think my 88H was marketed that way.

I"m pretty sure that when I was in high school (just prior to one of the ice ages and the rise of mammals), an 88H was a bass trombone (not a tenor-bass or a large-bore tenor). I remember that one of my closest band friends (a super baritone/euphonium player) was given an 88H "bass trombone" just before he graduated and went off to college. But that discussion is probably even worse than the euphonium/baritone/tenor horn/tennorhorn/alto horn discussion on the euph forum.

My advise to the OP. Your son is 16 and has 8 mos of playing experience. And he has taken to it - great!!

For now, forget about bass trombones. Get him a good large-bore (.547) trombone with F-attachment - if he doesn't already have one. Have him practice like the devil for the next couple years and get REALLY good. That is what will open doors.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Tue Nov 14, 2023 2:22 pm

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 10:23 am Do we still use the phrase tenor/bass trombone? I think my 88H was marketed that way.

I"m pretty sure that when I was in high school (just prior to one of the ice ages and the rise of mammals), an 88H was a bass trombone (not a tenor-bass or a large-bore tenor). I remember that one of my closest band friends (a super baritone/euphonium player) was given an 88H "bass trombone" just before he graduated and went off to college. But that discussion is probably even worse than the euphonium/baritone/tenor horn/tennorhorn/alto horn discussion on the euph forum.

Nope. At the time there was the 88H symphonic trombone (endorsed by Emory Remington at Eastman) and the 72H, an almost identical horn but with 0.562" bore and a 9½ inch bell. There were a number of other bass trombones available at the time as well.

Remington got all his students to use the 88H because it could cover all 3 parts in orchestra (a single trigger bass could cover nearly all the bass trombone literature of the time)

The term "Tenor-Bass" appears to have originated in Europe (Germany?) to distinguish it from bass trombones made in other keys (G and F without valves).