TromboneChat

Hi All,

I'm casting about for more ideas as to opening up the valve register on a 36B.

I'm aware of:

-opening up the rotor ports (caliper measurements indicate there is not enough metal to try this on mine)
-removing extraneous bracing (tried a couple configurations so far, with moderate success)
-polishing interior surface of the rotor (haven't tried)
-disassembling and reassembling entirely with no tension and clean solder joints (haven't tried)
-swapping out valve entirely (hope to not do this)

Rest of the horn plays great, including pedal register. Any other approaches you techs or players have tried?

Thanks for any help!

Does the valve seal? Is it well lubed?

Have others played it and come to the same conclusion?

What mouthpiece?

I have two similar-ish instruments, a King 3B/F and King 608F (very similar to each other, 608 is .525). Neither of them feel "open" in the valve range like my 42AFG does, but with some practice and finesse, they work great in that range, even with smaller mouthpieces. If you shove air into the horn and open up too much, the horns fight back and don't work.

Remember, it's a tenor not a bass. Different air is needed.
It is entirely possible to play bass on 1, I do on mine from time to time, but will never feel like a bass.

One way to open up the valve register is to play more than low notes on it. When you do your 3 note lip slurs (or 4 note slurs), extend them out into the trigger positions. Playing 3rd and up partials in the trigger range can help open up the lower partials.

Sdoubler wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:59 am Hi All,

I'm casting about for more ideas as to opening up the valve register on a 36B.

I'm aware of:

-opening up the rotor ports (caliper measurements indicate there is not enough metal to try this on mine)
-removing extraneous bracing (tried a couple configurations so far, with moderate success)
-polishing interior surface of the rotor (haven't tried)
-disassembling and reassembling entirely with no tension and clean solder joints (haven't tried)
-swapping out valve entirely (hope to not do this)

Rest of the horn plays great, including pedal register. Any other approaches you techs or players have tried?

Thanks for any help!

Why not try a lot of other horns if you don't like all about this horn? Of course you could swap the valve or take apart and put together again and remove braces but the other option "Opening up the rotor ports"? That operation as well as the others will probably have an unpredicted result also to the things you like about the horn. It could be for better but also for worse. I haven't heard of any results from such an operation, but in fact I haven't even heard of anyone who have DONE this. Has anyone here heard of this idea "Opening up the rotor ports" as beeing a success? Interesting!

/Tom

Opening up the ports used to be more common; Osmun has offered the service for decades at this point. Typically, Osmun doesn’t do anything poorly. That doesn’t mean it’ll help this horn but it isn’t a shot in the dark either.


Op, what are you comparing the F range to? Is there another instrument you have played that has a good lower register? A lot of times things are trade offs. The thing that makes you like it is also the reason that you might not like some other aspect of it. But on the other hand I have several medium bites that have fabulous F attachment ranges so it’s definitely possible to achieve that.

Also, what are you using it for that you need an F attachment? Is this an “everything horn” that, for example, you’re using for shows as a single horn player that go from doubling the trumpet to the bari sax? Or brass quintet? Something else? Reasons you wouldn’t get a second horn? (Cost to get new valve and rebuild and you’re in the territory).

Context matters though. For a rock band I’d recommend a 3BF… for others, large bore, so on and so forth.

The first thing to do is to get a good tech to look at the rotor and make sure its alignment is dead on and that it has good compression. While they're at it, check to make sure there's no solder globs (or other, nastier things) clogging up the works.

Opening up the ports is something that was usually done on 42B's because Bach used the same rotor on them as on the 36B. I don't recall reading much (if anything) about opening up 36B valves.

How's your trigger register on larger instruments?

Have you checked the valve loop tubing for a leak?

I have a LT36B demo model I got a few months back, and I haven't really noticed any real problems with the valve register. It's not going to play like a large bore, if that is what you are looking for. The valve is the same as on a 42B, and I think the F-attachment tubing may be as well, but the rest of the horn is not the same.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:54 am Have you checked the valve loop tubing for a leak?

Yes, definitely look for leaks - sometimes there are joints that didn't get soldered at the factory.

Get a 79h. Glorious trigger range.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 12:01 pm

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 8:54 am Have you checked the valve loop tubing for a leak?

Yes, definitely look for leaks - sometimes there are joints that didn't get soldered at the factory.

This is DEFINITELY true. I have a demo 42BOF that I tried out the same time as the 36, and when I went to pull out the F tuning slide, the outer tuning on one side moved too. They took it back and fixed it, and apparently the other side was barely soldered on as well.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:50 amI haven't heard of any results from such an operation, but in fact I haven't even heard of anyone who have DONE this. Has anyone here heard of this idea "Opening up the rotor ports" as beeing a success? Interesting!

Dana Hofer frequently does this on 42Bs, to generally positive reviews.

The valve register on a stock 36B is fine. If it's clean, oiled, and correctly aligned, then the remaining issues are down to user error. Others have suggested some practice approaches that may help.

Also mouthpiece choice. Very few small shank mouthpieces are balanced well for a .525 bore horn... And trigger range.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:25 am Also mouthpiece choice. Very few small shank mouthpieces are balanced well for a .525 bore horn... And trigger range.

I'm pretty happy with my Doug Elliott setup for my Conn 79H (0.522" bore):
E4* (small) Shank / LT E Cup / LT 100 Rim

(Unless Doug has a better recommendation!)

I had a .525 trombone (German make) at Osmun years ago for valve port opening. For that horn at least it was a big improvement on both sides of the valve, mostly for projection and freer blowing. But yes, first do all the no-cost checks on the horn before resorting to that surgery.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:49 am

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 9:25 am Also mouthpiece choice. Very few small shank mouthpieces are balanced well for a .525 bore horn... And trigger range.

I'm pretty happy with my Doug Elliott setup for my Conn 79H (0.522" bore):
E4* (small) Shank / LT E Cup / LT 100 Rim

(Unless Doug has a better recommendation!)

That E4* is hard to beat for 525. For low range, I have a large shank pipe and E8*, but that's not a common setup.

Hey all,

Thanks for the many replies and input!

The valve alignment is good as examined by Dana Hofer (highly regarded Chicagoland tech), and he also measured the rotor (metal too thin to open the ports) and removed a few braces as an experiment. My takeaways from your comments are to check the interior of the valve section for stray solder blobs and double-check for leaks and compression. After that it may just "be what it is."

The horn is a 1960 Mt Vernon 36B that I recently purchased from an older gentleman selling his collection. My hope is to use it more often in a music theater setting.

The pit I work most often in is very dry and very close, like playing into a pillow. Also they do in-house arrangements of every production, and the arranger uses the trombone as a catch-all for the stray 3rd trumpet, 3rd woodwind, bass trombone, etc... notes that he couldn't fit anywhere else. The parts are all over the place, it's a great challenge and I enjoy it. I'm sure many of you have experienced similar.

Over the years of working in this space, I've tried out: two Bach 36Bs, a Conn 79H, a Benge 175F, a King 607F, a Yamaha 446G, probably forgetting a couple.. Jumping between these horns (as well as smaller and larger bores and bass trombone) has been a great way to see what are the "gear problems" and what are the "me problems."

I play a Courtois 420BH for large-bore work, and I ended up finding a Courtois LW2 (.525) slide that fits my 420BH bell. This has been my solution for this particular pit and so I'm used to the Hagman valve, which plays fairly consistently traveling from the open horn through the valve and back.

I don't think mouthpieces are my solution, I think it's just a stuffy valve, but for those who think that is important to know, I've tried these pieces on the 36B: two Bach 5Gs, Hammond 11M skeletonized, Hammond 12M skeletonized, Hammond 12ML, Hammond 12L, Marcinkiewicz 9, Marcinkiewicz 10.

Is a 1960 rotor going to feel like a Hagman? Of course not, but any other tips to nudge it a step or two in that direction are appreciated!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 04, 2023 10:49 amI'm pretty happy with my Doug Elliott setup for my Conn 79H (0.522" bore):
E4* (small) Shank / LT E Cup / LT 100 Rim

(Unless Doug has a better recommendation!)

I use the exact same setup on my 36, except I use a 102 Rim. When I was emailing Doug he did mention that the XT series with the same specs might feel a bit more open if I wanted a better trigger range.