TromboneChat

This might be a weird thing to check.

I know, there are several things that have an influence on an instrument's sound (mouthpiece, leadpipe, breathing, embouchure and and and....).

Still I'm wondering, which medium bore horn has the biggest or most full (maybe you can translate to most "classical") sound? What do you think?

And how would you rank the widely known standard med. bore horns (Bach 36B, King 3bf, Conn 79H, Benge 175, Yamaha...) in this terms?

My experience was that the Bach horns were the most classical ones so far (only in terms of sound), but also haven't checked a Conn or Benge med bore instrument so far. So hope to hear some experiences from you

I’ve played my Shires .525 with the large shank leadpipe option under a colleague playing a .547 and we both thought that it sounded like it matched well.

Shires medium bore uses all the same bell parts as the large bore. Obviously there are a lot of things that would affect how a Shires plays since you can customize it, but I've played a few medium setups and they all played bigger than a 36 to me. I would add they all had the standard tuning slide and I could see how a tunning slide change could have a big affect on how big the horn played. Not sure about the others on your list as I haven't played them. Specifically if you get either version of the Ralph Sauer leadpipe I find it to be quite open.

King 3BF is not a medium bore -- it's 0.508" (12.9 mm).

The King 3B+F (2125F, not made currently) is the medium bore. I tried one and it was definitely not as "big" as a Bach 36. It's a nice horn in its own right, though.

I would probably give this to a Shires or Edwards instrument. Most of the 525 bore horns have 8" bell, except some of the Yamahas and some Conns come with 8.5", and Shires can be equipped in many different ways. The Shires 525 I played felt like a 547 to me, so I'd have to say that the modular horns will have the capacity to sound biggest.

I play 8h and 88h with a 525 slide, and while this combo has the bigger bell, it still I think sounds lighter/brighter than the 79h.

36b would probably be next. It can easily be used in orchestral settings. The 79h is an odd combination, because while it sounds very dark, it has a very light bounce to the sound. 79h is probably the most versatile because it can brighten up to fit into more pop styles. Mouthpiece selection has a lot of influence here. Benge is somewhat brighter, but this is all in the skin-of-the-teeth range. Yamahas to me are generally a bit dull, but if you go with a 356/455/456 they can lighten up some.

None of these are going to be so different that the audience can tell what you're playing. It's all behind the bell effects, and a lot of hair splitting. If you're really concerned about it, and want the biggest medium bore sound, get a modular and configure it to suit.

Williams Model 9.

Of the .525“ horns I‘ve owned, I‘d rate them as follows from most to least „classical“ as I understand the OP‘s definition:

Bach 36
Elkhart 8h bell with SL2525 slide
Bach Mercedes (I think it‘s 0.525“, don‘t have an accurate way to measure it)
Eastlake 88h lt ow bell with SL2525 slide
King 3B+
Besson 737 bell with King 3B+ slide

I agree with hyperbolica that most of the difference is behind the bell. For me as a player that has a big influence on how I play so I think even if the actual sound that comes out the front isn‘t that different, the stylistic way I approach playing more or less „classical“ horns is different. It‘s an illogical and expensive trait!

Just had a talk with another trombone player about medium bore trombones and that was a thing that came into my mind. We often talk about medium, large or small bore horns in a group, although the differences between those can be quite intense to say this at least.

Sure, it could be nothing that the audience notices and I'm asking just for myself. I personally do love Bach 36 horns, so there's that. But I was wondering whether there are qualities in terms of sound that make some medium bore horns sound more full than others. And even if the audience doesn't notice, the musicians you play with often do. And it will make a difference to your own playing in terms of articulation, imagination and approach of sound as well, I would say

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:28 pm King 3BF is not a medium bore -- it's 0.508" (12.9 mm).

The King 3B+F (2125F, not made currently) is the medium bore. I tried one and it was definitely not as "big" as a Bach 36. It's a nice horn in its own right, though.

Thanks Bruce! I've put in there because some people still refer to it as med. bore, although I know it's smaller than the others listed. 2125F is a great horn tho, too, which I forgot to list.

I have been listening to a direct comparison, with the same mouthpiece model 6 1/2 AL (but a different actual piece), between my recent make 36B and my early 90s 79H (8.5" rose bell, I think it's basically an 88h bell of the time on a medium bore slide). The difference in sound is much more subtle than I expected it to be. I was shocked at first how similar it sounds when played back.

Both horns are not currently in the same location and I hadn't played the 79H in some time. I recorded both with my phone. A deeper mouthpiece could probably make either more "classical" sounding, but I didn't have anything suitable at both locations for the comparison.

Comparing a long tone at moderate volume I think Bach is slightly darker and more focussed, whereas the Conn is warmer and a little more diffuse. FWIW I prefer the Bach sound (but reserve the right to change my mind anytime in the future).

Technically.... .525" is "medium large" bore. .508 is usually considered medium bore, and then .500 and .491 are small bore.

But anyway, among .525" bore horns, I would say the biggest playing one I have encountered is the Yamaha YSL-640. I also would think that the Conn 88H with a .525 bore slide would play like that as well. I loved my Yamaha 640, but in the end it didn't get the more compact sound and feel that I am getting now with my Bach LT36B.

Probably Bach 36B. Definitely feels/sounds bigger than the Benge 175f, and almost certainly also than the King 3B+ which is similar to Benge. IMO the Bach is "heavy" enough sounding that you have to work pretty hard to get it to work well for 3rd bone in big band, while the Benge fits perfectly in that spot.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:08 pm Technically.... .525" is "medium large" bore. .508 is usually considered medium bore, and then .500 and .491 are small bore.

Considered by whom? I "consider" 0.525" / 0.522" to be medium bore. I've heard in the U.K., they may consider 0.508" as medium bore.

In any case, I can't make all the comparisons (how many of us have played all medium-bore candidates?) but I am very pleased at how I can change the "color" of my 1970 Conn 79H (using different mouthpieces - and technique) from light & bright to big orchestral "classical." It's a very satisfying "chameleon!"

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:25 pmConsidered by whom? I "consider" 0.525" / 0.522" to be medium bore. I've heard in the U.K., they may consider 0.508" as medium bore.

In any case, I can't make all the comparisons (how many of us have played all medium-bore candidates?) but I am very pleased at how I can change the "color" of my 1970 Conn 79H (using different mouthpieces - and technique) from light & bright to big orchestral "classical." It's a very satisfying "chameleon!"

By Bach:

The Bach 36 trombone features an 8" one-piece hand-hammered yellow brass professional bell that offers a subtle brilliance with a complex color. The .525" medium-large bore offers outstanding clarity and balanced response.

https://www.bachbrass.com/instruments/t ... ssional/36

By Yamaha:

The series offers two different bore sizes to meet individual playing needs: the 620 features a large bore strong orchestral style performance, while the 640 has a medium-large bore for versatility in all musical genres.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical ... index.html

I don't know this, but would guess that the 175 uses the tuning slide from the 3B/3B+.

In any case, the 3B+ wouldn't be a contender for especial biggitude. For a .508, the 3B gooseneck and TS lower leg are quite large, and 'normal' for a hypothetical .525. But the bell is small; the 3B throat is tighter than the 2B, and miles from .525-.547 world. If you measure a 3B bell at the ferrule, it's slightly larger than a 2B, but that's only because the bell section proportions are different and the 3B stem is cut an inch shorter.

Most medium bores are actually on the larger side. For example, all Yamaha pro medium horns are 8.5” bells and share tuning slides with the large bore models. Student and intermediate Yamaha are 8” bells, but with the large bore tuning slide. Shires and Edwards bell sections as noted by others, are identical to large bore offerings. You can obviously get an 8” bell from both as well. Bach 36 is the same bell section as the 42, except 8” instead of 8.5” and a smaller receiver. Current Conn offerings are the 88 w/ a 525 slide.

The odd one out is really the King model which shares a tuning slide and bell with its 508 models. And, of course, some older out of production models like the Conns.

I think the “medium large” terminology reflects the aforementioned large bell with a medium bore slide. Similar to how sometimes marketing material refers to Bb/F as “tenor-bass” regardless of its bore size.

I think it’s reasonable to call 525 medium because it is in a unique category for functionality. In most western countries that I’m aware of, you typically won’t find professional orchestras playing 508 sized horns, but you will see 525, especially for downsized 2nd to alto. Likewise, with small notable exceptions, you won’t find that commercial players using 547. But likewise, you do somewhat commonly see 525.

Therefore, in places where you see 525s occupying an overlapping functionality, you also often find that it’s called medium bore. I suppose this doesn’t apply to the UK who does seem to fall 508 medium bores commonly unless 508 is more popular over there. I think it has to do with the brass band stuff over there

Thanks, tbone, for the information. I am now educated by the nomenclature used by Bach & Yamaha. Apparently somewhat at odds with what I thought was common in the U.S.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 4:43 pm Thanks, tbone, for the information. I am now educated by the nomenclature used by Bach & Yamaha. Apparently somewhat at odds with what I thought was common in the U.S.

It may be very old terminology. I mean, if Bach is looking at just their current lineup, .500" is small bore, .508" is medium, .525" is medium large, and .547 is Large.

But Bach used to make smaller bore trombones, like the .485" model 6 from the New York Days. so maybe the .500 is "medium"?

At one time Conn was calling the #3 bore (0.500", 12.7 mm) "medium", but trombones were generally smaller at that time.

Nowadays we consider the 0.525" or 0.522" to be "medium" as opposed to 0.547" bore as "large". (If you want to be metric, do the calculations yourself, please )

Looking through their marketing materials, they do t seem to indicate any kind of grouping of size for the 12, 16, or 16m. They’re just described as “[bore size] lightweight” or just [bore size].

Shires seems to indicate 508 is a “small bore”:
https://www.seshires.com/tbq33

The Q33 Small Bore trombone is a versatile instrument, ideally suited for jazz and commercial environments, as well as for lighter classical music

M&W calls 525 medium bores:
https://customtrombones.com/our-products

M&W 336 Medium Bore Trombone $5,720 (without valve $3,240.00)

Specs: .525 Handslide

King doesnt have any grouping mentioned on the 3B, 3B+, 607, and 607. Other than to say that the 3B+ is “larger”.

I was curious about some European makers. Looks like K&H class their .527(not a typo) a medium bore:

https://www.kuehnl-hoyer.de/en/produkt/ ... mbone-527/

The medium bored (13,4 mm/0.527″) tenor trombone with a new designed bell is standing for a noble and clear sound

JP Rath adopts the same “medium large” language:

https://www.johnpacker.co.uk/prod/jp-ra ... jp331/1090

And R100 is described as “medium” bore despite being .500. So marketing does seem to be pretty consistent other than UK

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:14 pm At one time Conn was calling the #3 bore (0.500", 12.7 mm) "medium", but trombones were generally smaller at that time.

At one time, Conn called the #2½/.485"(12.3 mm) bore 4H "Medium" and the #1½/.458" (11.6 mm) bore 2H "Small".

The meanings of "small", "medium", and "large" as applied to trombone bores have obviously evolved over time (not that there was any universal definition in the first place).

I've got an 88h with a .525 slide that was my main horn till i got basically the same thing with a Benge bell which took over as the daily horn. Use both on orchestra gigs regularly on 1st and 2nd and haven't had any issues with making a sound that fits. They're bigger than the Bach 36b as it's just an 88h bell section and a smaller slide.

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:33 pm

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:14 pm At one time Conn was calling the #3 bore (0.500", 12.7 mm) "medium", but trombones were generally smaller at that time.

At one time, Conn called the #2½/.485"(12.3 mm) bore 4H "Medium" and the #1½/.458" (11.6 mm) bore 2H "Small".

The meanings of "small", "medium", and "large" as applied to trombone bores have obviously evolved over time (not that there was any universal definition in the first place).

Now, where did these bore numbers come from? Like what decides a #1 1/2 bore size? Definitely interested in the history of how these sizes became "standard. Weren't they all originally sizes that came from fractions? Like this:

65/128 = .508"
269/512 = .525"
35/64 = .547"
9/16 = .5625

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:49 pmNow, where did these bore numbers come from? Like what decides a #1 1/2 bore size?

My impression that they are specific to Conn.
https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/ConnBoreSizes.html
Conn's bore numbers do seem to correspond roughly to 64th's.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:49 pmDefinitely interested in the history of how these sizes became "standard. Weren't they all originally sizes that came from fractions? Like this:

65/128 = .508"
269/512 = .525"
35/64 = .547"
9/16 = .5625

and 31/64" = .484"
It seems that some sizes originated as decimals (.525", for example) while others came from fractional sizes (.562", for example).
Some bore sizes may have come about because they worked as outer tubes for another size.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 7:49 pm Now, where did these bore numbers come from? Like what decides a #1 1/2 bore size? Definitely interested in the history of how these sizes became "standard. Weren't they all originally sizes that came from fractions? Like this:

65/128 = .508"
269/512 = .525"
35/64 = .547"
9/16 = .5625

Probably not fractions.

I believe that Conn was the only manufacturer that used numbers - like #1½ (0.458"), #2½ (0.484"), #3 (0.500"), 3½ (0.517"), 3¾ (0.522"), #4¼ (0.540"), #4½ (0.547"), #5 (0.562") - to represent bore sizes. It was probably their own internal system - not an industry standard. I guess they had some sort of bore size "ruler" that corresponded to these numbers / sizes. Perhaps someone else knows the code.

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:46 pm Looking through their marketing materials, they do t seem to indicate any kind of grouping of size for the 12, 16, or 16m. They’re just described as “[bore size] lightweight” or just [bore size].

Shires seems to indicate 508 is a “small bore”:
https://www.seshires.com/tbq33

The Q33 Small Bore trombone is a versatile instrument, ideally suited for jazz and commercial environments, as well as for lighter classical music

Correct. At Shires,

Small bore is .495-.508
Medium bore is .525
Large bore is .547-.562 (.578 is a leadpipe we've made before, but everyone makes mistakes...)

Could the bore sizes originally be based off available sizes from the tube drawing equipment of the time? Also perhaps the outside diameter measurement was a more “round” number?

On my Shires tenor I play a TB47G (gold slide). I'd probably like a TW25G a lot.

What, no love, for the Getzen 1036F!
https://www.getzen.com/trombones/eterna-series/1036f/

etbone wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:26 pm What, no love, for the Getzen 1036F!
https://www.getzen.com/trombones/eterna-series/1036f/

Do you have experiences with it? And can you compare it to other med. bore horns?

etbone wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:26 pm What, no love, for the Getzen 1036F!
https://www.getzen.com/trombones/eterna-series/1036f/

part of me keeps hoping that they or someone does a "tribute" Mt Vernon Bach 36. Kanstul used to make some .525 bore horns that were either like a 79H or 36B. Unfortunately even though Vincent Bach felt that the 36 was the ultimate orchestral trombone, everyone went bigger.

Personally though, with a community orchestra, I would play a 36 on principal.

etbone wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:26 pm What, no love, for the Getzen 1036F!
https://www.getzen.com/trombones/eterna-series/1036f/

Evidently not since it was discontinued!

Does it mention medium bore there? I skimmed but didn’t see it described that way

I use a Bach 36 as my "big" tenor. Have played it on 2nd, using a 5Gish mouthpiece, with a 42 being used on 1st with no problem.
I mainly play 1st on my Bach 12!

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 4:59 pm

etbone wrote: ↑Fri Jan 20, 2023 2:26 pm What, no love, for the Getzen 1036F!
https://www.getzen.com/trombones/eterna-series/1036f/

Evidently not since it was discontinued!

Does it mention medium bore there? I skimmed but didn’t see it described that way

.525”

Oh yeah, I know it says .525, but it doesn’t say “medium”. Some manufacturers language was saying “medium large” for straight 525 horns (such as the Bach 36). Some were saying that we should be calling 508 medium bore and 525 medium large

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Jan 21, 2023 4:40 am Oh yeah, I know it says .525, but it doesn't say "medium".

This page does say "medium": https://www.getzen.com/trombones/eterna-series/

Ah! I see that, good catch!

I’ll take this a step further to suggest a 36G with larger mouthpiece and heavier slide. A past teacher played this horn with a Wick 4AL in the orchestra on principal, and it was wonderful. Also very versatile for quintets, solo, 3rd bone in big band, shows, salsa, etc…usually changing mpc/lead pipe if necessary.

Chiptingle wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:48 am I’ll take this a step further to suggest a 36G with larger mouthpiece and heavier slide. A past teacher played this horn with a Wick 4AL in the orchestra on principal, and it was wonderful. Also very versatile for quintets, solo, 3rd bone in big band, shows, salsa, etc…usually changing mpc/lead pipe if necessary.

Bach 36 uses a small shank leadpipe. I don't think there is a large shank leadpipe that fits it. The closest to a Wick 4AL might be the 4AY, which is sized for the Yamaha 321 euphonium. Or it could be a 4BS, which is a scosh smaller in diameter and with a smaller aperture (on a small shank).

I’m probably remembering incorrectly then, though I do remember specifically a gold Wick. It was the early ‘80’s, so I’m learning to laugh and forgive myself as these cases dial up in my life!

Cheers

I'd also lean towards the Bach 36 but then again the right Rath R3F might take the crown. The R3F I played at ITF was amaziing and played much larger than I imagined.

I play a 547 Edwards sterling bell with a 525/547 slide. Plays like a small 547 or a big 525.
Or I put the 547/562 slide on and it play real solid and big.

Dual bore will help that in between wish a lot.

I only know the older horns. I list the medium horns I own from most classical to least classical.
Bach 36BO
Conn 79H
Kanstul 760 (dual bore .500-.530)
Benge 170f

My Willuams 9 is in its own category as well as the Lars Gerdt mod 216 Bb/G tenor. .500. They have their own unique voice and sound which is a lot bigger then expected. Both these are very rare so I just skip to compare them.

The Yamaha 891Z, 892ZX and the King 3b are .508 horns and can be considered for classical rep too with the right player and mouthpiece, but of course any horn with any size can be a classical horn in hands of the right player. I sometimes use them for classical rep.

/Tom

I mounted a terrific playing 36 bell to a Bach 42 corporation F attachment. I then asked Matthew at M&W to construct a .525 slide (yellow with nickel crook) that accepts both .547 and .525 leadpipes. I also had a tech modify a Shires T25NLW slide tenon to fit Bach/Edwards receivers. With the right combination of slide and mouthpiece it can work for almost any setting. Greg