TromboneChat

For B♭ trombones with (dependent or in-line) dual-valve attachments, it seems to be almost universally taken for granted that the thumb-trigger-actuated attachment should be tuned down a perfect-fourth to F—presumably to be compatible with the ubiquitous B♭/F single-trigger tuning, dating back to Christian Friedrich Sattler’s 1839 invention of a ‘quick-change mechanism’ for converting back-and-forth between a ‘B♭ tenor’ and ‘F bass’. However, it may be instructive to explore other thumb-trigger tunings in combination with various finger-trigger and double-trigger tunings.

Dependent geometry
For dependent-valve geometry, there are four viable double-attachment tunings with the thumb-trigger F attachment: B♭/F/E♭, B♭/F/D, B♭/F/D♭, and B♭/F/C. These all offer a few handy (thumb-trigger) attachment alternates in the otherwise awkward low-tenor register, with continuous extension to pedals using the double combination. However, some of these combinations do not fill the octave gap between the B♭ instrument’s first and second harmonics very uniformly—the E♭ tuning is a bit too high (requiring a long E♭-attachment slide extension for B1) and the C tuning a bit too low (requiring a long F-attachment slide extension for D♭1). If the thumb-trigger attachment is tuned a semitone higher to F♯ (G♭), there are three viable options providing continuous extension to pedals: B♭/G♭/E♭ (an E♭ minor triad with the slide closed); B♭/F♯/D (a B♭ augmented triad); and B♭/G♭/D♭ (a G♭ major triad). These are all compatible with the single-trigger B♭/G♭ tenor, offering several more (thumb-trigger) attachment alternates in the low-tenor register. Of these three, the B♭/F♯/D combination provides the most uniform distribution of attachment harmonics in the slide-alone first-to-second-harmonic gap: three equally spaced major thirds. For a G (natural) thumb-trigger attachment with dependent geometry, there are three viable continuously chromatic options: B♭/G/E♭ (an E♭ major triad); B♭/G/D (a G minor triad); and B♭/G/D♭ (a G diminished triad). Being compatible with the B♭/G single-trigger tuning, these combinations provide many more (thumb-trigger) attachment alternates in the low-tenor register—but at the expense of necessarily somewhat longer positions (relative to B♭/F♯/D) below the bass clef.


Independent geometry
With in-line independent geometry, the two most common tunings are: (i) B♭/F(thumb)-G(finger)-‘E♭’(double), and (ii) B♭/F(thumb)-G♭ (finger)-D(double). In case (i), with the slide closed, the ‘E♭’ is 30¢ flat and therefore unusable; the shortest-slide-position arpeggio between first and second slide-alone harmonics is a B♭ major-sixth tetrad. This gives fairly good distribution of attachment harmonics; however, the double-trigger B1 is a long way out. The triggers could be reversed, making the B♭/G-F-‘E♭’ combination compatible with the single-trigger B♭/G tenor. In case (ii), the attachment harmonic distribution is rather uneven—the F and G♭ harmonics are too close together. But this combination is popular because the double-trigger B1 is considerably closer, and there is a non-pedal B♭1 at the end of the slide. Again, the triggers could be reversed, giving compatibility with the single-trigger B♭/G♭ tenor. With the thumb-trigger G attachment, there are two other viable options that have very good distribution of interleaving harmonics, both compatible with the single-trigger B♭/G tenor: (iii) B♭/G(thumb)-E(finger)-D(double), and (iv) B♭/G(thumb)-E♭(finger)-D♭(double). In case (iii), the E attachment should be tuned 20¢ sharp in order to give a perfectly in-tune D double. The D2 is available at double-trigger 1st position, finger-trigger 3rd position (aligning exactly with slide-alone 4th position, by design), and again at thumb-trigger 6th position. The C2 is available at double-trigger 3rd position and again at finger-trigger 5th position. The E-attachment third-harmonic provides a B2 (natural) in 1st position, with other useful alternates further out. Slide manipulation is very ‘natural’ feeling throughout the full range, down into the low bass register—closely mimicking the facile upper register of the B♭ trombone. Case (iv) is a transposition (up a P4) of the ‘European’ or ‘German’ tuning of the Thein contrabass, F/D-B♭-A♭. On the B♭/G-E♭-D♭ instrument, the E♭ should be tuned 7¢ sharp in order to give a perfectly in-tune D♭ double. Some slide facility is lost in the low-tenor register (relative to B/G-E-D)—because the E♭-attachment’s third harmonic mostly overlaps the B♭ slide-alone second harmonic—but the double-trigger B1 and non-pedal B♭1 are much closer.

You make some excellent points here, and some of them are even applicable to single valve instruments (tenor and bass). The short and sweet answer to this dilemma is... it's tradition to put the thumb valve in F. There are a handful of trombones out there with that valve in G or E, and they both have their own benefits in certain situations. Manufacturers continue to build horns with F-attachments as they always have because it works well enough in 98% of situations for 98% of players.

Some basses have valve tuning options from the factory, like my Benge 290 whose 2nd valve can stand in Gb or G by removing an extension slide and whose thumb valve is in F but has a pull to E. Conn 60/70 series single valve basses usually had a pull to E or bE, and the dependent basses had factory slides available to tune the dependent valve to E, Eb or D. King Duo Gravis had an extension to choose between E or D. You can get additional tuning slides for some basses to change the trigger tuning outside of what the factory would offer- Bach 50B3 comes to mind with slides available to tune the 2nd independent valve to D or C on its own.

A few years back, I owned a low-quality large bore trombone with an F-attachment. I was playing a lot of bass trombone at the time and used the Gb valve on my bass trombone almost more than the F valve. I took the large bore, reconfigured the F-attachment to stand in G or Gb and ultimately settled on a Gb valve tuning. A valve in G on a tenor seems slightly redundant to me, as 4th position isn't that far out and it puts the in-staff C and B in 3rd and 4th position respectively and makes some slide work feel clunky. Tuning the valve to Gb allows for smoother movement across that spot in the range by putting the aforementioned C and B in 2nd and 3rd, allowing a smoother slide flow that feels more consistent with the upper register slide flow. Not to mention the added flexibility of having a Db/Gb in 1st position... but that's what worked best for me in that moment in time. I had it configured that way for years until I was able to find a higher quality large bore that I was not willing to cut down to Bb/Gb tuning.

I wouldn't want to relearn some alternate way of using an f-attachment, nor teach students how to do so. If that mindset is common, that's probably why it is the way it is.

Just to include an extra layer of depth to this conversation, I've seen the idea tossed around (and I believe a handful have been built) of an instrument with one ascending valve and one descending valve.

So you'd end up with something like an instrument in C/Bb/F or some variation thereupon, where you still have full chromatic range, but shift to the pedal register at C. I suppose it could be set up like a French Horn change valve so you could be pitched in C or Bb without engaging the valve at your preference.

I've thought something like this would make a good instrument for very demanding solo literature as the shorter instrument could offer some extra security in the extreme high register. It's not without it's complications to build something like this, but an interesting thought experiment if nothing else.

As soon as you said one ascending and one descending valve, I immediately imagined a trombone where engaging both triggers at once had no effect, other than to mess up intonation.

I've idly thought about trying the Bb/Gb/D dependent setup before. I certainly use the Gb valve more than the F, so if I had to play a dependent horn I'd base it on Gb rather than F. I have a feeling always playing Eb out in ~5th would be a bit annoying, so I might carry Eb and D slides for the 2nd valve. If you were to do Bb/G dependent tuning, I would think Eb would be a requirement.

Ascending valves are a different can of worms. There have been independent Bb/F/ascending C trombones, including the compact bass made on this forum and the Thein tenor that has it as an option (or at least it used to...haven't seen it on the website in a while). Bb/E/ascending C also gives just as many interesting alternate position possibilities as Bb/F/ascending C does. There have also been dependent Bb/F/ascending C trombones, which seems like the perfect solution for the classical tenor player used to Bb/F who doesn't want to complicate what they know, but needs to play the occasional low C/B in solo rep and wants to make certain high notes in orchestral excerpts a little easier.

At the end of the day, I use both the F and Gb valves alone a LOT, and I'm not sure I could give either of those up on my daily driver. If I remember correctly the independent F/ascending C arrangement gives something in the vicinity of G with both triggers pressed, so that might be an option. But losing D in 1st and Db in 2nd might be too much of a loss to make up for the cornucopia of alternates that arrangement provides, even though I usually play them out in 5th/6th with the F valve.

So, I’ve got an idea on this that I plan to test… I find myself needing a more tenor size horn that can serve as a full bass at a moments notice, so I was going to build a double section for it. Now I think that a standard F/G or F/Gb section might not be what I’m looking for. I have a half baked idea, and when I flesh it out a little, I’ll show my work.

That said, I do love ascending valves, but you have to redesign the horn around one. Can’t just dip a toe in there.

Cheers,
Andy

Honestly, I had a Bass in Bb/F/G/Eb, and I did not find myself using the G trigger very much for 4th position. I've never had trouble getting from 1st to 4th, and I look at the trombone as an instrument where moving the slide is how the notes are changed. I also don't see any reason why the intervals being "balanced" or "matched" when you have two valves really makes any real difference. It's not like I think of the valve as "lowering the pitch". I think of them as changing the key of the instrument, which is exactly what they do.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:30 am So, I’ve got an idea on this that I plan to test… I find myself needing a more tenor size horn that can serve as a full bass at a moments notice, so I was going to build a double section for it. Now I think that a standard F/G or F/Gb section might not be what I’m looking for. I have a half baked idea, and when I flesh it out a little, I’ll show my work.

That said, I do love ascending valves, but you have to redesign the horn around one. Can’t just dip a toe in there.

Cheers,
Andy

Have you considered LIBrass' Db trombone with two valves? His was a bass, but maybe a tenor would work as well.

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:18 amIt's not like I think of the valve as "lowering the pitch". I think of them as changing the key of the instrument, which is exactly what they do.

Either way is a reasonable way to conceptualize the role of the valve(s). It's interesting to me that it doesn't seem like euphonium players with a compensating fourth valve tend to think of their instrument as a double tenor/bass tuba in Bb/F, though of course that's what it is.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:34 pmEither way is a reasonable way to conceptualize the role of the valve(s). It's interesting to me that it doesn't seem like euphonium players with a compensating fourth valve tend to think of their instrument as a double tenor/bass tuba in Bb/F, though of course that's what it is.

Maybe it's due to the more limited use? I wonder how Double / Triple horn players think of the instrument.

With the Euphonium and Compensating Tubas, there is a relatively limited use for the 4th valve. It's better than a "regular" 4th valve, but as you get lower down, the intonation suffers with multiple valves being used at the same time, even with the compensating system. There are also many situations where I would use the F valve on a trombone that don't make sense on a Euphonium, as they don't have a slide, so it's not like I gain anything by using an alternate position for Bb or A.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 11:45 am

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 8:30 am So, I’ve got an idea on this that I plan to test… I find myself needing a more tenor size horn that can serve as a full bass at a moments notice, so I was going to build a double section for it. Now I think that a standard F/G or F/Gb section might not be what I’m looking for. I have a half baked idea, and when I flesh it out a little, I’ll show my work.

That said, I do love ascending valves, but you have to redesign the horn around one. Can’t just dip a toe in there.

Cheers,
Andy

Have you considered LIBrass' Db trombone with two valves? His was a bass, but maybe a tenor would work as well.

Well, long before he built that I pieced together an Eb/Bb/G tenor… so yes, I have thought of that. Kinda. I do think that is a case where an ascending valve makes more sense, as a mostly standing horn in Db is not very useful to most folks.

My next thought is roughly with no more tubing than a Bb/F/Gb horn, why not do something really dumb and have essentially a superbone with an F attachment? Combination of independent and dependent valves. But packaging is a pain.

Cheers,
Andy

The "F side" on a euph isn't very useful above the register where it is required. It's not like a double horn where you can use either side on most of the range and it'll sound like a horn. On a euph, the "F side" (4th valve+some other combination of valves) is going to sound noticeably different than the Bb side in the middle and upper register, and not really in a good way. There ARE times where it's advantageous to play all on the F side (Pineapple Poll anyone?), but they are few and far between. I suspect this is mostly because the 4th valve and attendant tubing are built with a significantly larger bore than the preceding tubing, as they are optimized for the low register. If everything was the same bore like on a horn, I think the F side would be a lot more useful in the middle and upper register...but that would be in exchange for a stuffy low register.

Contrast that with double horn, where you are taught from day 1 to use both sides of the instrument constantly. They connect very well to each other on a good horn, well enough that no two player's standard fingerings are quite the same, and you will deviate from your default often depending on the passage. I've played written high C on the F side more than once in concerts and sessions, as well as G below the staff on the Bb side. No reason to do anything like that on euphonium really.

Speaking of euphs, Matthew Summers (President's Own euph player) recently had a custom Adams euph made that uses a 5th rotor tuned to Gb like a bass trombone's second valve instead of the compensating system.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:33 pm Well, long before he built that I pieced together an Eb/Bb/G tenor… so yes, I have thought of that.

I've been really curious about that ever since I first saw you post about it years ago. Got any pictures?

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 2:36 pm [quote=elmsandr post_id=201512 time=<a href="tel:1675719193">1675719193</a> user_id=147]
Well, long before he built that I pieced together an Eb/Bb/G tenor… so yes, I have thought of that.

I've been really curious about that ever since I first saw you post about it years ago. Got any pictures?
[/quote]
Current incarnation. This has been pulled apart and rebuilt a number of times… overall concept is “2007 Mk 2” so it has seen some things around the torches. Still needs some work and it is a hair long still. Eb is REALLY short. But my goal for this horn was something that with a cut bell I can fit it in a briefcase/laptop bag. As such, slide doesn’t have a reliable 6th position, but with both valves, it isn’t needed.
Cheers,
Andy

Amazing!! One of the coolest things I've seen on this forum. I'd love to have something like that built someday.

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:52 pm Amazing!! One of the coolest things I've seen on this forum. I'd love to have something like that built someday.

Bear in mind, this is a barely ‘designed’ horn… more made from standard parts I had/found. 42 flare, 50 tuning slide shortened to be as short as I felt was feasible. Barely left room for the two valves (one Conn, one Kanstul… I think). Shortened handslide receiver. Bell is put very close to where you want 3rd position to be and slide length is what was left over. Would love to have this with a more sensible taper plan and design, but this was proof of concept more than finished product.

Cheers,
Andy

Still, it IS a proof of concept! The fact that it's a functional high Eb instrument made out of large tenor and bass parts is huge.

Worked fantastic for a pit show I did… can’t remember which show, but I had no issues with slide room.

Back to the topic… there are a TON of great arguments for F, G, Gb, and even bE and E above… why not all at the same time? I’ve been needing to have a double valve tenor to be able to cover all parts at a moments notice with only maybe a mouthpiece swap… Okay, NEED is probably an exaggeration, but I’m not bringing two horns with me and I really hate the one or two numbers that are a lot happier on a double when I’ve only got a single. So I was thinking F/G as I like G more for tenor… but I got thinking. My modular 42 is based on a 42, not a 42B, so I’ve got a little extra neck pipe area to play with… why not have F/G/ AND a 1/2 step valve to get back to D so I don’t have to think about it too hard. Not a bad plan, I think you could do some of the valve knuckles at a 45 and put the rotor in the middle under the neck pipe and save some real estate there….. but at this point, you have a half step valve, let’s call this #2; and the G valve, let’s call this #3; the first valve.. if it were in Ab, that’s just a super bone, right? What if we split that F into Ab and a dependent loop to get back to F? No more tubing than a F/Gb section, but a lot more options.

How to hold this thing? I’m thinking Haynor style grip, three valves top with a woodwind like mechanism for the rods. Thumb valve would be nice if it moved both rotors to get to F, but that would be for the second version, as I’m sure I’ll screw up the first.

Now, anybody have any decent valves to donate? They likely won’t survive this process and be usable in any recognizable manner. I’ve added this to my list of dream projects, but I’m already a bit behind on those.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:29 am …
Now, anybody have any decent valves to donate? They likely won’t survive this process and be usable in any recognizable manner. I’ve added this to my list of dream projects, but I’m already a bit behind on those.

Cheers,
Andy

F.F.S.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175605298655? ... SwPo9j49Ro

Jesus, take the wheel…

Cheers,
Andy

Interesting that they are selling them without mentioning the name of the manufacturer Meinlschmidt, and in a bulk box like that. I wonder what the story is behind those, as they seem to pretty much sell small bulk lots of many things.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:32 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:29 am …
Now, anybody have any decent valves to donate? They likely won’t survive this process and be usable in any recognizable manner. I’ve added this to my list of dream projects, but I’m already a bit behind on those.

Cheers,
Andy

F.F.S.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175605298655? ... SwPo9j49Ro

Jesus, take the wheel…

Cheers,
Andy

Clearly the seller is a brass instrument expert:
"BRAND NEW OPEN FLOW METER"

Straight from China? Order as many as you want - the factory has unlimited capacity.
Authentic Meinlschmidt? I think not.

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:29 amwhy not have F/G/ AND a 1/2 step valve to get back to D so I don’t have to think about it too hard.

Well now we've come full circle back to the triple dependent thread from years ago.

First valve goes to G.
Second valve adds enough to get F with both.
Third valve adds enough to get D with all three.

Thumb paddle activates the first 2 valves, getting F.
Finger paddle activates the first and third valve, getting just G when alone (as the 2nd valve is not open to reach the open D valve) and D when both paddles are pressed.

The only real headache is making the linkage that has both triggers going to the first valve, but I'm sure that's doable.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:16 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 7:32 pm

F.F.S.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/175605298655? ... SwPo9j49Ro

Jesus, take the wheel…

Cheers,
Andy

Clearly the seller is a brass instrument expert:
"BRAND NEW OPEN FLOW METER"

Straight from China? Order as many as you want - the factory has unlimited capacity.
Authentic Meinlschmidt? I think not.

Actually, I would bet they are. Look at the seller and all the stuff they sell. Tons of completely random items that are surplus for some reason or another, my guess is they buy/recover shipping errors. Random electronics, industrial motors, clothing… bet it is stuff that was missing and insurance paid out the loss.

As for them having these, to paraphrase The Simpsons, “it’s like a donkey with a spinning wheel; nobody knows how they got it, and darned if they know how to use it.”

Cheers,
Andy

Finetales wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 9:36 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed Feb 08, 2023 6:29 amwhy not have F/G/ AND a 1/2 step valve to get back to D so I don’t have to think about it too hard.

Well now we've come full circle back to the triple dependent thread from years ago.

First valve goes to G.
Second valve adds enough to get F with both.
Third valve adds enough to get D with all three.

Thumb paddle activates the first 2 valves, getting F.
Finger paddle activates the first and third valve, getting just G when alone (as the 2nd valve is not open to reach the open D valve) and D when both paddles are pressed.

The only real headache is making the linkage that has both triggers going to the first valve, but I'm sure that's doable.

/tugs at collar

I may have started sketching the most recent thought in the same file where I was sketching one of those out… I really need to stop sketching and just start building things.

Cheers,
Andy

I picked my valve combo years before the horn makers did. The thoughts I had then are still realistic and seem to make about any combination you can learn work.


The larger tubing on the second valve makes the horn very a balanced blow all the way down. Since I learned this way, it makes more sense than an independent horn because the sound works easy. And as I play a straight tenor or a single valve tenor, the simplicity of both valves on the bass being mostly 1st, 2nd or 3rd position, playing this horn is just like playing a trombone to me.

When I thought this up many years ago when the closest thing to the internet was a horn catalog or seeing a guy with 3 valves on a bass. Seems like it was Mike Suter and the valves were Bb/F/E/Eb and all 3 D. My logic was playing F or C is in 1st with a valve, so C is in first with 2 valves and when the slide goes out the bore is larger. And the Valve tubing is larger. So more tubing must be larger still.

Now while I would never change my bass, I did have an Ab or 1st valve made that goes on my small bore jazz horn. Any trick or valve use with alternate positions works well and gives me some real speed for jazz. I make this in the last 10 years, so an old dog can learn new tricks.

I find both valves on the newer basses feel stuffier then just one valve. Just enough that is messes with me. The best thing on my setup is the independent philosophy taken to the next step with a larger bore 2nd valve. Even though my wrap is wound up pretty tight, it blows with both valves really free.




https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1izx3 ... OfI1MLgbqw

@elmsandr All I got is WOW!! That's cool!