TromboneChat

Hey all,

I'm currently looking to invest in a new jazz horn, currently playing on an XO 1032R. Willing to spend about a max of $3k, and don't really have a good sense of what I'm looking for in a jazz horn since I haven't tried many. Looking for a good long-term investment, ideally a small or medium bore horn that's versatile enough to use playing lead, other parts, and some more technically demanding classical stuff. I live close to a major music shop, so I won't have an issue trying a lot of models. More than willing to experiment with all types of options out there. Where do you all recommend I start, and what are some of the most well-liked models?

What is it about the 1032R that is motivating you to invest up to $3k in a new horn?

Are you looking at new or also used?

When you say some technical classical stuff, are you looking for something with an F attachment to help a bit with some lower technical passages or is it more to do with being nimble? Or both?

...but what's the best jazz?

'Correct answers' range from a Bach 6 to Andy Hunter's Rath R3F, so until you know what you want and why you want it...

Try a 2B, 3B, 6H, Martin Urbie, LT16M, and anything else you can get your hands on.

Spend $1k on one of those, and spend $2k hearing great jazz live.


(I'm essentially serious - there are individual duds, but most of the classics are good designs and have Sounds that were idiomatically relevant to various genres at various points. Until you have some very specific sound or playability goal in mind, buying a boutique small bore doesn't make much sense. Don't get me wrong - there are some fabulous new horns out there, but without a particular tonal concept it's possible and perhaps tempting to spec something that feels like an ensmallened incredibly easy large bore and sounds like not a whole lot.)

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:20 pm ...but what's the best jazz?

'Correct answers' range from a Bach 6 to Andy Hunter's Rath R3F, so until you know what you want and why you want it...

Try a 2B, 3B, 6H, Martin Urbie, LT16M, and anything else you can get your hands on.

What he said, plus perhaps a Getzen 3508.

I too am curious about why you are stepping away from the XO 1632....they are fantastic!

Hi gheinberg.

Your Bach 42 should cover the heavy stuff.
For the lighter stuff, if you were to have a tech set up your Yamaha 1032 with changeable leadpipes it would be versatile enough to play Dixieland tailgate on Saturday night and "Ave Maria" on Sunday morning.
You might be able to try out a .500" bore horn with removable leadpipes at that shop near you to get a feel for the differences they can make. Lots of versatility of sound for way less than $3K.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:20 pm What is it about the 1032R that is motivating you to invest up to $3k in a new horn?

Are you looking at new or also used?

When you say some technical classical stuff, are you looking for something with an F attachment to help a bit with some lower technical passages or is it more to do with being nimble? Or both?

To answer both your and Slydeguy's questions here, I got the 1032 from my current teacher for a dirt cheap price for its value. I could probably sell it for more than what I bought it at. It's a nice horn and works well, but I never really gotten to try other models except for a King 3B. And since that King felt so much better for me (much easier to navigate the registers, articulate, and got me closer to achieving my ideal sound) , I'd have to believe that there are other horns that are better too. So while I'm not necessarily dying to spend $3k, I am looking to at least explore what else is out there and potentially invest in a horn that gives great value and longevity for me.

I don't really mind if a horn is used or not, and when I mean classical stuff, I already have a great large bore f-attachment horn, so what I meant was investing in a horn that is able to be used to play lead in a big band, not-lead in a big band, and some alto work in classical pieces. I'd rather not invest in an alto horn since I think a small/medium bore tenor would be good enough for me. I'm not that serious about it.

BUT I do understand that the 1032 is a nice horn, and with practice I could still be satisfied with it. I'm just looking
for other options at the moment.

CharlieB wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:55 pm Hi gheinberg.

Your Bach 42 should cover the heavy stuff.
For the lighter stuff, if you were to have a tech set up your Yamaha 1032 with changeable leadpipes it would be versatile enough to play Dixieland tailgate on Saturday night and "Ave Maria" on Sunday morning.
You might be able to try out a .500" bore horn with removable leadpipes at that shop near you to get a feel for the differences they can make. Lots of versatility of sound for way less than $3K.

Good point! I'm actually working with an XO 1032 and I don't know if they offer changeable leadpipes... I'm assuming techs can custom-make a variety of leadpipes?

Jupiter parts are pretty easy to come by for a tech. At least relative to some other makers. And .500 pipes are almost as plentiful as .547 pipes. So you shouldn't have problems swapping leadpipes out.

That said, you don't have much in this horn, and you'll likely put more into getting the pipes swapped than you have into it. While the XO Jupiters are a substantial improvement over previous Jupiter models, it is possible that there is a better fit. With commercial horns, especially if you're near a place where you can try... to try as many of the popular models as you can... King 2B/2b+/3b (even King 607F!), Bach 16/M, Getzen 3508Y, Yamaha 8xx series etc. Assuming that your local shop has a good selection of pre-owned. If you find something you like... mission accomplished! You might even be able to pick up a medium bore TOO with your budget.

Another thing to consider with your budget is 1) perhaps a Butler, if experimenting with carbon fiber is up your alley or 2) deciding on one of the custom shops and going there for a fitting. Or at least telling them about what you're looking for. Edwards, M&W, Shires, and Rath have dealers and afaik each manufacturer also does something resembling fittings. You are virtually guaranteed to get something that suits you working with any of them. At this point in time, some are possibly slightly over that budget though.

Personally, I've always gone pre-owned and/or custom because I've been pretty lucky and I've preferred to have several horns over one horn. Nice to have several colors to choose from and a lot between a 484 and a 547!

Edit: Clarified who I thought did fittings

Matt K wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:07 pm Jupiter parts are pretty easy to come by for a tech. At least relative to some other makers. And .500 pipes are almost as plentiful as .547 pipes. So you shouldn't have problems swapping leadpipes out.

That said, you don't have much in this horn, and you'll likely put more into getting the pipes swapped than you have into it. While the XO Jupiters are a substantial improvement over previous Jupiter models, it is possible that there is a better fit. With commercial horns, especially if you're near a place where you can try... to try as many of the popular models as you can... King 2B/2b+/3b (even King 607F!), Bach 16/M, Getzen 3508Y, Yamaha 8xx series etc. Assuming that your local shop has a good selection of pre-owned. If you find something you like... mission accomplished! You might even be able to pick up a medium bore TOO with your budget.

Another thing to consider with your budget is 1) perhaps a Butler, if experimenting with carbon fiber is up your alley or 2) deciding on one of the custom shops and going there for a fitting. Or at least telling them about what you're looking for. Edwards, M&W, Shires, and Rath have dealers and afaik all of them also do fittings. You are virtually guaranteed to get something that suits you working with any of them. At this point in time, some are possibly slightly over that budget though.

Personally, I've always gone pre-owned and/or custom because I've been pretty lucky and I've preferred to have several horns over one horn. Nice to have several colors to choose from and a lot between a 484 and a 547!

Ok, got the picture now.

I know the feeling and have no regrets about scratching the itch of moving from a very serviceable setup that I played for 20 years to end up with something that is just downright easier for me to get the results I want from my playing.

Adding to the list of what‘s been said already perhaps you could consider the following (mostly used) options to try out if available:

Benge 170 Freelance
Conn 6H/48H
Olds Recording
Courtois 402

Together with the King, Bach, Getzen and Yamahas mentioned already that would give a very wide range of sounds/responses.

Enjoy the search. Once you‘ve narrowed it down a bit it‘s well worth asking to take one or more instrument on trial and using it on a couple of rehearsals/gigs in different acoustics.

I would look at used examples of the proven models above as well as Bach 12, Bach 16, and the Yamahas (691/697/891/897, I think). Oh, and the budget Rath... R100?... I forget.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:20 pm ...ensmallened

Love it! New dictionary entry?

Yesterday in the grocery store I texted my wife:

"I immediately enlostified, babes. Where are you?"

All of my Jazz horns have been replaced by a Shires "Marshall Gilkes" model, the most versatile "smaller" horn I've ever played and I've played many......

Slydeguy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:40 pm I too am curious about why you are stepping away from the XO 1632....they are fantastic!

XO1032R !!

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:42 am

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 2:20 pm ...ensmallened

Love it! New dictionary entry?

I like it and will start using it immediately. Along with "embiggened," which was coined by The Simpsons and has been used by web programmers and others for years.

In your search, seriously consider anything dual bore, esp .500/508. "Odd" sizes though rare are worth a look too, like a Reynolds .515 or .520

Almost any horn, .509 or less, with a good slide and an appropriate mouthpiece.

Since you liked the King 3b, check out the XO 1634. It is a .508 bore horn with lite weight slides. Plays similar to a 3b but with little or no quirks that a 3b can have. $$ won’t break the bank. Get it with the gold brass bell, not the yellow brass

gheinberg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:59 pm Good point! I'm actually working with an XO 1032 and I don't know if they offer changeable leadpipes... I'm assuming techs can custom-make a variety of leadpipes?

A tech can modify pretty much any horn to receive interchangeable leadpipes.
Many of the new trombones in your price range already have this feature.
It's not necessary to have the tech make custom leadpipes.There are many dozens of off-the-shelf leadpipes offered. The varied personalities that different leadpipes can impart to a horn are a wonderful thing.

CharlieB wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:42 pm

gheinberg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:59 pm Good point! I'm actually working with an XO 1032 and I don't know if they offer changeable leadpipes... I'm assuming techs can custom-make a variety of leadpipes?

A tech can modify pretty much any horn to receive interchangeable leadpipes.
Many of the new trombones in your price range already have this feature.
It's not necessary to have the tech make custom leadpipes.There are many dozens of off-the-shelf leadpipes offered. The varied personalities that different leadpipes can impart to a horn are a wonderful thing.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:12 pm Since you liked the King 3b, check out the XO 1634. It is a .508 bore horn with lite weight slides. Plays similar to a 3b but with little or no quirks that a 3b can have. $$ won’t break the bank. Get it with the gold brass bell, not the yellow brass

Thanks, looks very nice too! Always a cool bonus

gheinberg wrote: ↑Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:58 pm
To answer both your and Slydeguy's questions here, I got the 1032 from my current teacher for a dirt cheap price for its value. I could probably sell it for more than what I bought it at. It's a nice horn and works well, but I never really gotten to try other models except for a King 3B. And since that King felt so much better for me (much easier to navigate the registers, articulate, and got me closer to achieving my ideal sound) , I'd have to believe that there are other horns that are better too. So while I'm not necessarily dying to spend $3k, I am looking to at least explore what else is out there and potentially invest in a horn that gives great value and longevity for me.

If your teacher gave you a special deal, I suggest you reach out to them and offer to sell the horn back to them as a courtesy -- before you attempt to turn a profit.

--Andy in OKC

Yeah, what he ^ said. Important.

I can also recommend the 1634R as an alternative to a KIng 3B. I also like those older XO, they have a beautiful sound. But the slide is rather heavy and I never got used to them. So I was very happy when the Fedchock XO .508 appeared. I do not like the small one, XO1632, it is too light for my taste and does not hold together very well when pushed...like Jiggs`s 2B.

Never be without a 3B. Buy another horn, sure. Don't sell your only 3B if it's good.

I have an Edwards 500/508. This is the easiest horn I have ever played. Seem like it plays itself sometimes. My endurance is twice any other horn I have or played.

And the sound is so sweet! I have new caps on my front teeth and some health issues. I have times I just cannot get my large bore horns to play right. I pick up this small horn and she takes me home somehow like a loyal dog and then I can play the rest of the stable again.

If you are happy with your Bach 42 and like the way it plays… I would suggest a Bach 16 (bore size of a King 2B), or a Bach 16M (bore size of a King 3B). brassandwinds.com has a new (demo) of each for $2100… that’s a great price.

All the recommendations so far are quite solid. I can also tell you from experience that the Carol Brass 2209 is a very decent .508 horn. It does have a fixed leadpipe, but if you want to change leadpipes, a tech can do that for you. The price is very good.
In the meantime, work on your jazz playing with your 1032R. Doug Elliott has had great success with a student Yamaha.
Good luck in your search for The One True Horn!

6h, 48h, Martin Urbie or Wessex Urbie copy are my favs... The greatest I've ever played was a Minick 100h, not the Conn equivalent. Courtois 402 is really great if you don't mind the tuning quirks. If you like smaller horns, the Conn 24h and Bach 6 are fantastic. 2B is kind of the standard in that size. For bigger bores, Bach 16/16m, Bach 12, 3b, Yamaha 891, Shires Michael Davis Plus is beautiful. Rath R2, R10 are really nice. Some of the smaller Edwards like the 302 I think has a following. Williams are kind of legendary, Schmelzer, Lawler are rather acquired tastes... Even the Olds Super and Recordings have a significant number of fans.

There are so many with great qualities, you just have to try a bunch and find out if you're a Conn guy or a Bach guy or a Williams guy or a Rath or...or....or...

Nothing wrong with a 1032. Maybe not to your taste but comparable to a 2B, a 697 or a 100H, ie small, light jazz horn.

whitbey wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:42 am I have an Edwards 500/508. This is the easiest horn I have ever played. Seem like it plays itself sometimes.

I have played a (similar) Getzen 3508. It's a wonderful jazz trombone; a pleasure to play! Not enough time on it to really evaluate fully, but I think it may be better than a King 2B, King 3B, or Conn 6H.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:19 pm

whitbey wrote: ↑Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:42 am I have an Edwards 500/508. This is the easiest horn I have ever played. Seem like it plays itself sometimes.

I have played a (similar) Getzen 3508. It's a wonderful jazz trombone; a pleasure to play! Not enough time on it to really evaluate fully, but I think it may be better than a King 2B, King 3B, or Conn 6H.

I had a 2b and a 6h. And a borrowed 3b. Slide is way better and the sound was way sweeter. I do not like the 2b edgy. I look for more velvet.

whitbey wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 6:07 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Feb 11, 2023 8:19 pm

I have played a (similar) Getzen 3508. It's a wonderful jazz trombone; a pleasure to play! Not enough time on it to really evaluate fully, but I think it may be better than a King 2B, King 3B, or Conn 6H.

I had a 2b and a 6h. And a borrowed 3b. Slide is way better and the sound was way sweeter. I do not like the 2b edgy. I look for more velvet.

I just recently got a Getzen 1050, a 508 predecessor to the 3508. Really fantastic player. It's light, but doesn't play crazy bright. More free blowing than my 48h. Very easy to play instrument. Slight resistance around high Ab, but I'm still experimenting with mouthpieces, and maybe leadpipes. I haven't played a 3508 yet, but I would like to get one.