Holton 169

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I know these have a cult following as well, so figured I’d post this up in case anyone’s in the market for one.

https://www.dillonmusic.com/used-holton ... sn-392457/

[Elow]

Shhhhh... i want it! Is it true Minick got his flare design from this model?

[Burgerbob]

That's a lot for a single!

[spencercarran]

And already gone!

I want one of these badly, but I have to agree with Aidan, that's an awful lot of money for something with pretty limited/situational usability.

[tomato]

i greed that is way to much .for single valve bass fair price is 2000 only if is original condition ,excellent shape .

[mrdeacon]

Gone in a flash!

Shhhhh... i want it! Is it true Minick got his flare design from this model?

I have both a Minick bass and a 169. The flares are pretty different from one another. I wouldn't call them similar.

[Bach5G]

No one can say it’s “too much”; all one can say is that it is “more than I would be willing to pay”.

[hornbuilder]

Or, I want it, but I don't want it "that" much.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I’ve always wondered how we go about pricing single valve bass bones. If this 169 was priced too high, how do we justify the price of a NY/MV Bach 50? Those go for way more any day of the week and are single. What differentiates them from this?

[hornbuilder]

There is no set price list for any second hand horn. If anything, this 169 could have sold for "more", simply because there are fewer of them than there are NY or MV Bach's.

A seller will list a price, and someone will either pay it, or they won't.

[JoeStanko]

How about a trio?

[Elow]

Gone in a flash!

I have both a Minick bass and a 169. The flares are pretty different from one another. I wouldn't call them similar.

Ah okay, do any stock flares have a massive throat like the Minick?

[tbonesullivan]

AFAIK, Dillon Music does consignments, in which case the seller can set the price. However if it did sell that fast, that shows that currently the market is that high. Also the TR169 is the "rare" and more desirable single valve when compared to the TR183 and TR185. The 183 with the 9 inch bell appears to be the least desirable. Of course, I don't really understand all of the differences between the single valve models.

I've been looking for a single valve bass for a while that isn't a Bach 50B, and there just is so little out there, especially in really nice condition like that one was.

[Burgerbob]

I’ve always wondered how we go about pricing single valve bass bones. If this 169 was priced too high, how do we justify the price of a NY/MV Bach 50? Those go for way more any day of the week and are single. What differentiates them from this?

An early 50 is worth a lot for the slide, tuning slide, and bell so it can be chopped up into a double of some sort. I don't see the same sort of demand for Holtons.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

There is no set price list for any second hand horn. If anything, this 169 could have sold for "more", simply because there are fewer of them than there are NY or MV Bach's.

A seller will list a price, and someone will either pay it, or they won't.

I agree with there seems to be fewer 169s compared to NY/MV 50s. I’ve seen more NY/MV 50s pop up for sale than 169s over the years.

[HawaiiTromboneGuy]

I’ve always wondered how we go about pricing single valve bass bones. If this 169 was priced too high, how do we justify the price of a NY/MV Bach 50? Those go for way more any day of the week and are single. What differentiates them from this?

An early 50 is worth a lot for the slide, tuning slide, and bell so it can be chopped up into a double of some sort. I don't see the same sort of demand for Holtons.

Yikes! I would hope that those dishing out the dough for an original NY/MV 50 would keep them as stock as possible for posterity sake.

If it were already altered then that’s another story. But if someone was dropping $4k+ for an original single valve 50 from NY/MV, I’d hope they would consider leaving it alone and maybe opt for a drop-in valve if they wanted a second valve added.

[Burgerbob]

An early 50 is worth a lot for the slide, tuning slide, and bell so it can be chopped up into a double of some sort. I don't see the same sort of demand for Holtons.

Yikes! I would hope that those dishing out the dough for an original NY/MV 50 would keep them as stock as possible for posterity sake.

If it were already altered then that’s another story. But if someone was dropping $4k+ for an original single valve 50 from NY/MV, I’d hope they would consider leaving it alone and maybe opt for a drop-in valve if they wanted a second valve added.

Then what's the point?

I know there are plenty out there like that... but then they are just as useless as this 169 in most circumstances. I'd rather they just get played than sit in a case.

[Tbarh]

Yikes! I would hope that those dishing out the dough for an original NY/MV 50 would keep them as stock as possible for posterity sake.

If it were already altered then that’s another story. But if someone was dropping $4k+ for an original single valve 50 from NY/MV, I’d hope they would consider leaving it alone and maybe opt for a drop-in valve if they wanted a second valve added.

Then what's the point?

I know there are plenty out there like that... but then they are just as useless as this 169 in most circumstances. I'd rather they just get played than sit in a case.

Except if You are like me and use singel valve 75%of the time and drop in the D valve only when neccesary ..Why ?….Because it sounds better.. Thats Why! (I play an E 185 with a great rebuilt D plug in with spilt triggers btw)

[imsevimse]

Then what's the point?

I know there are plenty out there like that... but then they are just as useless as this 169 in most circumstances. I'd rather they just get played than sit in a case.

Except if You are like me and use singel valve 75%of the time and drop in the D valve only when neccesary ..Why ?….Because it sounds better.. Thats Why! (I play an E 185 with a great rebuilt D plug in with spilt triggers btw)

Mee too I use singles whenever I can and doubles when I have to. It is still possible to do an E-pull whenever and there are also the option to use fake notes. A drop in valve sounds like a good thing to. For the moment I play more bass than tenor so finally I'm apparently more of a bass trombonist than I ever was. Besides some subbing in different situations on tenor I play tenor in the Johan Stengård Big Band and in the "George Graham Foundation Orchestra" but since these bands don't rehearse much and mostly play gigs the two big bands where I play bass tronbone gives me more opportunities to play and the Holton 169 is one that I often use in one of those bands where repertoire is older, lots of Basie and traditional arrangements that are doable on a single. The other band is different. In that band I usually play any of my doubles, a split trigger Kanstul 1662 is what makes it easiest but a original Conn 73h, 62h or a King 6B works fine too. I would never chop a great single in hope it will become a great double. It could be a success but in case I would like a better double I'd rather invest my money in some of the newer double trigger horns.
I love to play my Holton 169

/Tom

[elmsandr]

Nobody would be playing a Stradivarius violin if it hadn’t been altered.

It’s fine. Add a valve or not. Whatever, it is a tool.

*for completeness sake, I have a single NY50 that I intend to add a drop D to, but who knows what will happen when I actually get the torch out.

Cheers,
Andy

[JohnL]

*for completeness sake, I have a single NY50 that I intend to add a drop D to, but who knows what will happen when I actually get the torch out.

Wouldn't it be great if someone made a parts kit that included all the parts to do the conversion with making any permanent alterations.

[spencercarran]

There is no set price list for any second hand horn. If anything, this 169 could have sold for "more", simply because there are fewer of them than there are NY or MV Bach's.

A seller will list a price, and someone will either pay it, or they won't.

It did sell within about a day or so of listing, so I'm sure you're right that it could have sold for more. Clearly there are people who want these horns a great deal.

[hornbuilder]

*for completeness sake, I have a single NY50 that I intend to add a drop D to, but who knows what will happen when I actually get the torch out.

Wouldn't it be great if someone made a parts kit that included all the parts to do the conversion with making any permanent alterations.

But it isn't that simple. The F tuning slide is too close to the main tuning slide to allow a valve addition with sufficient clearance. The valve loop has to be modified for it to work.

[JohnL]

But it isn't that simple. The F tuning slide is too close to the main tuning slide to allow a valve addition with sufficient clearance. The valve loop has to be modified for it to work.

I was actually thinking about elmsandr's implication that he might go beyond a slot-in valve once he got going with the torch, but the concept would also apply to a slot-in valve that won't fit the existing configuration. A "complete" parts kit would include any and all components needed to make the conversion without having to cut and/or bend any parts.

[Finetales]

The other no-cutting option other than the bird's nest valve is to do an alternate main tuning slide with a big rotor stuck in there, like that old Bach 50 that Noah had at the BrassArk for a while. I tried it out...weird horn, but a pretty good player. Didn't feel like the MTS valve was causing any problems.

Still, I tend to side with the "it's a tool, modify it however you need to use it the most effectively" camp. I've thought about cutting up my 1-of-4-accounted-for-in-the-world meehaphone before...they're just hunks of metal at the end of the day.

[JohnL]

The other no-cutting option other than the bird's nest valve is to do an alternate main tuning slide with a big rotor stuck in there, like that old Bach 50 that Noah had at the BrassArk for a while.

Another no-cut option would be to change out everything between the tenon and the tuning slide legs and put the old parts in a box. New valve(s), new wrap, new neckpipe, new linkage.

[Burgerbob]

The other no-cutting option other than the bird's nest valve is to do an alternate main tuning slide with a big rotor stuck in there, like that old Bach 50 that Noah had at the BrassArk for a while.

Another no-cut option would be to change out everything between the tenon and the tuning slide legs and put the old parts in a box. New valve(s), new wrap, new neckpipe, new linkage.

well... yes. That's what most people would do.

[JohnL]

Another no-cut option would be to change out everything between the tenon and the tuning slide legs and put the old parts in a box. New valve(s), new wrap, new neckpipe, new linkage.

well... yes. That's what most people would do.

I dunno - It seems to me that a lot of people try to some go other route. Maybe it's just because those are the ones I hear stories about.

[Burgerbob]

well... yes. That's what most people would do.

I dunno - It seems to me that a lot of people try to some go other route. Maybe it's just because those are the ones I hear stories about.

There isn't much on an original valve section that you want to keep if you use modern valves. The real value for a player looking for a horn like this is really just the bell and the tuning slide, sometimes the slide.

[LIBrassCo]

There isn't much on an original valve section that you want to keep if you use modern valves. The real value for a player looking for a horn like this is really just the bell and the tuning slide, sometimes the slide.

This.

[Tbarh]

If You put modern valves and wrap on a Holton 169 it could end up beeing a good Horn, but it will not be a Holton 169 anymore..For some players that will matter!

[hyperbolica]

If You put modern valves and wrap on a Holton 169 it could end up beeing a good Horn, but it will not be a Holton 169 anymore..For some players that will matter!

If you're going to take apart a rare horn to make something else, just buy something else and take that apart. Let someone else play the vintage horn as it was made. If you can find one with a destroyed bell or unplayable slide, that's different. That horn needs rescue, and giving it another life as something else might be a favor to the world. No one would fault you for taking apart a 181 and fixing that, but a 169 doesn't need fixing.

[Tbarh]

If You put modern valves and wrap on a Holton 169 it could end up beeing a good Horn, but it will not be a Holton 169 anymore..For some players that will matter!

If you're going to take apart a rare horn to make something else, just buy something else and take that apart. Let someone else play the vintage horn as it was made. If you can find one with a destroyed bell or unplayable slide, that's different. That horn needs rescue, and giving it another life as something else might be a favor to the world. No one would fault you for taking apart a 181 and fixing that, but a 169 doesn't need fixing.

Just what I said !

[elmsandr]

“It is a tool.”

Should I not install seatbelts on my 65 Mustang because it wouldn’t be a 65 anymore?

I understand it would look tacky to put a ricaro racing seat in it, but that would be perfectly fine for some folks. There are changes for functionality that are worthwhile to some. I try for mostly non-permanent changes, myself, but sometimes it cannot be avoided.

Might have to freak everybody out and mock up the non-working Fuchs in the basement with some Thayers.

Cheers,
Andy

[WGWTR180]

AFAIK, Dillon Music does consignments, in which case the seller can set the price. However if it did sell that fast, that shows that currently the market is that high. Also the TR169 is the "rare" and more desirable single valve when compared to the TR183 and TR185. The 183 with the 9 inch bell appears to be the least desirable. Of course, I don't really understand all of the differences between the single valve models.

I've been looking for a single valve bass for a while that isn't a Bach 50B, and there just is so little out there, especially in really nice condition like that one was.

For those of us who play Holtons most, not all, find the 185 more desirable to play as the 169s can be a tad heavier. Both the 169 and 185 are difficult to find, especially in that condition. The owner of that particular 169 texted me and asked me if I were interested. I was busy and could not call him back soon enough. Oh well. I'm selling stuff now anyway.

[Tbarh]

“It is a tool.”

Should I not install seatbelts on my 65 Mustang because it wouldn’t be a 65 anymore?

I understand it would look tacky to put a ricaro racing seat in it, but that would be perfectly fine for some folks. There are changes for functionality that are worthwhile to some. I try for mostly non-permanent changes, myself, but sometimes it cannot be avoided.

Might have to freak everybody out and mock up the non-working Fuchs in the basement with some Thayers.

Cheers,
Andy

If You have a non working Fuchs in Your basement,by all means fix it, but i suggest that You use original Conn parts when available.. I doubt very much that You will make a better version using modern valves etc.These Horns are not only very well constructed and crafted but also «curated» with parts so that it is made to work around idiosyncracies.. The Fuchs i borroved last summer is the most open Horn i have played bar none.My Holton E 185 sounds Even better (for me)despite old fashioned tight valves..Put on modern open valves and it may blow more open but the magic is gone..

[tbonesullivan]

For those of us who play Holtons most, not all, find the 185 more desirable to play as the 169s can be a tad heavier. Both the 169 and 185 are difficult to find, especially in that condition. The owner of that particular 169 texted me and asked me if I were interested. I was busy and could not call him back soon enough. Oh well. I'm selling stuff now anyway.

DANG. Oh well. I'm really just in the market for a smaller single valve bass so I don't have to bring the big guns all the time. I've been looking at Conn 71H and 72Hs, but then I'd need to get a Remington mouthpiece. I've also been on the look out for one of the Olds Single valve horns but those are also just not out there.

I'm still regretting not picking up a single valve Kanstul when I had the chance.

[JohnL]

“It is a tool.”

Should I not install seatbelts on my 65 Mustang because it wouldn’t be a 65 anymore?

I understand it would look tacky to put a ricaro racing seat in it, but that would be perfectly fine for some folks. There are changes for functionality that are worthwhile to some. I try for mostly non-permanent changes, myself, but sometimes it cannot be avoided.

Might have to freak everybody out and mock up the non-working Fuchs in the basement with some Thayers.

Cheers,
Andy

Sure, it's a tool - but it's not a 9/16' box end/open end wrench. Not only are there millions of those out there, but they're making more of them every day. I can drive (or even walk - it's that close) to the local Harbor Freight and get one that does everything you'd expect it to do. With a little more effort and money, I could get a Snap-On or other premium brand. Not only that, but they're still making more of 'em. There aren't that many unmodified 169's in the world and they're not making any more of 'em. What's more, there is still a demand for them.

To continue the 1965 Mustang analogy, the modifications you mentioned are minor and largely reversible. A more appropriate analogy for cutting the neckpipe on a 169 would be modifying the engine bay to take a big block and/or the fenders to take extra wide tires.

But the bottom line is that you own the horn, so you can do what you want with it.

[Finetales]

Might have to freak everybody out and mock up the non-working Fuchs in the basement with some Thayers.

I, for one, would love to see that! (And the ensuing fireworks here. )

But the bottom line is that you own the horn, so you can do what you want with it.

Some people need to understand this a little better.

[elmsandr]

“It is a tool.”

Should I not install seatbelts on my 65 Mustang because it wouldn’t be a 65 anymore?

I understand it would look tacky to put a ricaro racing seat in it, but that would be perfectly fine for some folks. There are changes for functionality that are worthwhile to some. I try for mostly non-permanent changes, myself, but sometimes it cannot be avoided.

Might have to freak everybody out and mock up the non-working Fuchs in the basement with some Thayers.

Cheers,
Andy

If You have a non working Fuchs in Your basement,by all means fix it, but i suggest that You use original Conn parts when available.. I doubt very much that You will make a better version using modern valves etc.These Horns are not only very well constructed and crafted but also «curated» with parts so that it is made to work around idiosyncracies.. The Fuchs i borroved last summer is the most open Horn i have played bar none.My Holton E 185 sounds Even better (for me)despite old fashioned tight valves..Put on modern open valves and it may blow more open but the magic is gone..

Thus why it is still non-working. Slide was dead, had M&W make a new one.. that slide is now the best I own, BTW, truly a wonder. I had a valve… but I couldn’t do it. Still sitting and staring at it. Need to get with Matt and send it over for a consult and chart a course of action. What *I think* I want is to fix/replace valve as necessary and build a drop in valve for a double… but I don’t know about that.

Needs to be useful… but my general strategy is to preserve parts for the next generation and keep them useful in this one.

Cheers,
Andy

[Riverapa]

For those of us who play Holtons most, not all, find the 185 more desirable to play as the 169s can be a tad heavier. Both the 169 and 185 are difficult to find, especially in that condition. The owner of that particular 169 texted me and asked me if I were interested. I was busy and could not call him back soon enough. Oh well. I'm selling stuff now anyway.

DANG. Oh well. I'm really just in the market for a smaller single valve bass so I don't have to bring the big guns all the time. I've been looking at Conn 71H and 72Hs, but then I'd need to get a Remington mouthpiece. I've also been on the look out for one of the Olds Single valve horns but those are also just not out there.

I'm still regretting not picking up a single valve Kanstul when I had the chance.

Hello! I’m new here. But I love this chat! I love my “Frankenhorn” 185 dependent. It is a Holton, Conn (rose brass bell), Minick that he made in 1977 in LA! Bought it when I lived in LA doing studio work / grad school in 2012. So glad there are tbone geeks like me!

[imsevimse]

I bet people who like veteran cars would like a T-Ford as close as original as possible for sentimental reasons. When we talk trombones there are more than sentimental reasons to keep a 169 as a single. You could of course put a V8 in a T-Ford and drive it at full speed (maybe) but why, maybe to demonstrate that you can do the conversion? I guess that's impressive if you have those skills but then to choose to compete with that car with other cars with V8 engines? Well I don't know enough about cars really.... but when it comes to horns I think there will be better new horns if you really need a VERY good double. Maybe to chop a single is cheaper, but what if the result is not a good horn?
I don't need more than one 169 so if you own one of the others you can do whatever you want with it..

/Tom

[flotrb]

I have an original Holton 169 Bb/F rose brass bass trombone
(serial # 355xxx) that I bought from Dorothy Ziegler (1st trombone St. Louis Symphony) in 1965 and have been playing since then. I pondered adding a second valve, but since the original 2nd valve attachment and noisy linkage were no longer available, I asked my local repairman, Joe Sellmansberger (also great tuba player) for a consultation. Here is his web posting:



"I shortened the wide fixed branch ("crook" - what-have-you) in the traditional wrap F-attachment by 1-1/8" on each "leg". I then replaced the F-attachment slide tubing with a new assembly that is 1-1/8" longer. This leaves the F-attachment the same length, but allows for considerably more tuning range (if not "low B friendly", at least "low B possible"). To allow for a "quick change" from "nearly all the way in" to pulled "nearly all the way out", I added a stop rod with stop nuts (that, BTW, barely clears the main tuning slide but is out of the way when the right hand index finger reaches back there to pull it out). Obviously, alignment and surface-friendly slide tubing was a "must" on this job; It needs to move fast, but obviously cannot leak. I also vented the rotor to avoid a "pop"! The modification works fantastically (I especially like the security in knowing that the low B is going to solidly be there).

[tbonesullivan]

Hello! I’m new here. But I love this chat! I love my “Frankenhorn” 185 dependent. It is a Holton, Conn (rose brass bell), Minick that he made in 1977 in LA! Bought it when I lived in LA doing studio work / grad school in 2012. So glad there are tbone geeks like me!

NICE! Minick was definitely an innovator. I know he used a lot of parts from different makers, though I'm not clear on whether he was taking apart horns, or maybe that back then it was easier than it is now to source parts from the makers.

I've thought about hunting down one of the Minick style modded dependent horns, but honestly I'm perfectly happy with the Dependent bass I already have, so a good single is what I really want.

[imsevimse]

I played my Holton 169 yesterday at a concert at a jazz club in Stockholm. It is an amazing horn and considering the result I will use it a lot more in the future. I tuned the T1 F flat to enable a good C at the far end of the slide and the few B's I had I did as fake tones. This horn is so good and has lots of colours. I got complements from the audience for "a good sound" and three guys were discussing my horn in the pause as it rested on its stand. They pointed at the valve and obviously were on to something. It was one of them who later commented my sound. The audience were real jazz freaks as it was a jazz-club with members who had membershipcards

/Tom

[2bobone]

Since there seem to more than one Holton 169 aficionado on this thread I'd like to ask about my long gone Holton 169 with the famous/infamous Kleinhammer/Glantz add-on G valve. During my time of ownership I thought that the K/G drop-in trigger setup constituted the 169 designation, but perhaps not. Any opinions ?

[sf105]

DANG. Oh well. I'm really just in the market for a smaller single valve bass so I don't have to bring the big guns all the time. I've been looking at Conn 71H and 72Hs, but then I'd need to get a Remington mouthpiece.

There are other options. I use plumber's tape with Conn horns if I have to, and our own Doug Elliott sells appropriate shanks for his mouthpieces.

S

[spencercarran]

DANG. Oh well. I'm really just in the market for a smaller single valve bass so I don't have to bring the big guns all the time. I've been looking at Conn 71H and 72Hs, but then I'd need to get a Remington mouthpiece.

I might be the odd one out here, but I don't think having an instrument with unusual receiver size is that big a deal, as long as you can find (or have made) a suitable mouthpiece. Even if you have to special order something it's a one-time expense and something like an $80 upcharge to get a Schilke to fit Remington shank, while several premium mouthpiece brands (Greg Black, Doug Elliott) are the same price either way. Not a big enough obstacle to reject an otherwise good trombone over.

[Posaunus]

DANG. Oh well. I'm really just in the market for a smaller single valve bass so I don't have to bring the big guns all the time. I've been looking at Conn 71H and 72Hs, but then I'd need to get a Remington mouthpiece.

I might be the odd one out here, but I don't think having an instrument with unusual receiver size is that big a deal, as long as you can find (or have made) a suitable mouthpiece. Even if you have to special order something it's a one-time expense and something like an $80 upcharge to get a Schilke to fit Remington shank, while several premium mouthpiece brands (Greg Black, Doug Elliott) are the same price either way. Not a big enough obstacle to reject an otherwise good trombone over.

Indeed. I have a wonderful Conn 71H (1969, Elkhart) that has a Remington taper receiver. With it I mostly use an (affordable) Doug Elliott setup (J8/Conn Shank, MB J Cup, MB 108 or MB 109 Rim) that plays very nicely for me. I also have (thanks to TromboneChat) the original Conn Connstellation 3B mouthpiece and a Schilke 58 mouthpiece with a Remington shank (courtesy of Graham Middleton at Marcinkiewicz) that work well.

Mouthpieces should not be an impediment to playing these fine old Conn trombones.