TromboneChat

Possibly crazy idea...

Those old English bass trombones pitched in G with silly-long slides and handles on the slides so players could could reach all positions. Probably the work of Besson/Boosey most often...

Would it be ridiculous to buy one?...

How do they play?....

Benn Hansson plays it very well, maybe he'll comment. They resonate and lock in low notes without a big mouthpiece.

I have one. It's a Whaley and Royce Stencil (probably Besson). It's large bore -- 0.525" (13.3 mm). Smaller than most tenors as used today. Bell is also smaller than any modern bass (8" or so).

It was a struggle to use a 4C mouthpiece in it (too large). Bass mouthpiece? Fuggedaboudit.

Note that some English music of the early 20th Century is actually written for something like this. Even some Aaron Copland parts seemed to lie well on a G Bass.

I'm sure it would work nicely in a section with two British "pea shooter" horns. Against two Bach 42B's? Nope.

greenbean wrote: ↑Tue Feb 14, 2023 5:55 amWould it be ridiculous to buy one?...

If you want one and can spare the money? No. Would you be able to bring it into many ensemble settings without the director getting annoyed at you? Also no.

I've shown the Benn-Light.

I've played his Betty model G bass. It was a very, very cool horn. I'm not sure I would settle for much less, though, and they are rare beasties.

Hi All, I think Ed Solomon would be a better expert to ask about. I have had the pleasure to play numerous G basses and they are of very limited use in the US. I really, really want to use mine with smaller tenors for early Romantic works in some of my orchestras, however getting modern tenor players to use small horns can be tough.

The .487" bore of standard G basses is bright. OLDER G basses are often leadpipe less and while bright they are more open blowing that you would expect.

One fun thing is that the slides for Imperial (Modern Betty model) G-D basses are long enough for an F bass.

So, IMO you will have fun with a G bass. Will you get to play it in a modern group? Unlikely.

I had an opportunity to use my Imperial G-D bass for the lone bass trombone part for the Chopin 2nd piano concerto. The reason I didn't was because it has a hard time playing up to A=440hz and I didn't want to play out of tune. Many old G basses for the British market are old high pitch as well, which are A=452hz. One of my deceased clients had his Fathers 1920s Boosey orchestral pitch (440) small bore. IT had a medium shank leadpipe less setup with very lightweight construction (thim walled) compared to some of the thicker guage brass band models from later. That particular .487" instrument had a lovely sound (until FF).

The rarest G I have played was not my Imperial. But a Conn 88H! G BASS from the 20s. Before the model number was reused for the tenor we all know it was used for a large bore G bass. .547" slide with soldered on stockings, barely 7 position (7th was at the very end of the stockings), a small 7.5" bell, but indeed the rest of it did look like a stretched out 8H with a small.bell diameter. That horn had a nice round sound.

The most unusual G bass I have seen is owned by Noah Gladstone. An east German F bass that was factory cut down to G for the brass band market. It was not a fun playing experience. Small slide bore, huge throat, bad intonation, and an awful slide. The sound could be something however.

OK story time over....

Benn

Our bass trombonist here picked up one of the .525 bore versions with the attachment (D?). He's played it on a few things, using a Doug Elliott mpc. that is sort of small bass w/medium shank. It works well on the right rep. He played a Britten - Young Person's Guide..." - all of the glissandos worked! Also a Mozart - Magic Flute Overture where I played alto - nice blend. A lot of work to use for anything technical both for remembering where the notes are, and then for tuning them, but he really made it work. Surprising how big it sounds - the .525 is deceiving.

Jim Scott

If you play in a section that is down with playing small bore tenors, you could use it to play Holst or Elgar and probably have a great time.

Personally, while I would love to get a chance to play on a Betty or other classic G bass, I would really love to see/hear/play a modern G bass with 2 valves. Not one with contra proportions like Jeff Reynolds', but a real G bass. Same with F bass.

All good info, guys. Thanks!

I once owned a "G" bass that had a swivel on the handslide handle that always reminded me of the universal joint on a car's driveshaft ! It could possibly have come directly off the chassis of a Morris Minor ! It played tolerably well and without much effort could perfectly imitate the ripping of a large sheet of metal in the hands of a Valkyrie. Perhaps the best pictorial representation of the "G" bass trombone is this drawing on a birthday card I received from my niece and nephew many years ago. That is no demure little old lady ! My instrument was inscribed C.G.Conn on the bell and it had no valve. Does anyone know if Conn actually manufactured these beasts or was it a "stencil job" ? A curious critter, indeed !

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:18 pm Perhaps the best pictorial representation of the "G" bass trombone is this drawing on a birthday card I received from my niece and nephew many years ago. That is no demure little old lady !

(Gerard) Hoffnung, of course!

2bobone wrote: ↑Wed Feb 15, 2023 2:18 pm ... My instrument was inscribed C.G.Conn on the bell and it had no valve. Does anyone know if Conn actually manufactured these beasts or was it a "stencil job" ? A curious critter, indeed !

It was a genuine article. Model 88H from 1925 to 1929. Not to be confused with Remington's favorite.

I have an old 'straight' B&H Imperial but also have the G-D that was the last made by Boosey's. It has a larger bore than the straight one and I presume is precisely the model that Jim Scott talked about a couple of posts ago. I skimmed a couple of thou off of a Bach 1 1/2 G shank and it fits well and works well, better than the original mouthpiece that was dsigned for it. I know that will meet with disaproval from those that think you should use original mouthpieces for an authentic sound. It works for me or should I say saves me working too hard to get a sound out of it. Most previous posters have talked about a thin or sharp tone from these old models but I'm not sure that is right. As many of you will know we hung on to the G bass in the UK for much longer than the rest of the world so there were many still in existance as I grew up and in fact Frank Mills at The National Opera was still playing a G trombone long after I had started playing Bass Trombone. So I feel well qualified to say that good exponents of the G trombone never sounded anything but 'big'. One of my predecessors at the famous Portsmouth Citadel Band, Alan York was well known for his big sound and after his retirement we became good friends. It is his G-D that I now own. I am not making a case here for the G-D, for compared to modern Bb/F horns they are more cumbersome and it is more difficult to get a big sound but not impossible in the right hands (probably not mine)... I must dust the instrument off and frighten a few people with its appearnce at a rehearsal one day... Doug

If you want to know what the G/D bass trombone sounds like in a section with smaller tenors, I made an arrangement of some traditional British songs for trombone quartet. You'll have to excuse the recording quality and intonation, as this was during lockdown and my first attempt at trying this out (loads of people were doing it at the time).

Here are the four parts:








Finally, here's a performance of Elgar's Enigma Variations using a section of two Conn tenors (6H/100H), my B&H G/D bass, and a Besson F tuba.

Nice!

Once you know the positions, get used to the long slide and handle, and assuming the slide is good, playing fast is not really that much of a problem on the longer basses. My speed is more limited by the response of the longer tube than by the slide, in my experience. I find the Kyrie from Mozart's Requiem quite a bit easier on G bass than in Bb.

Ed, were you using an Olds for those upper parts in the British Song cycle? It's probably a tad larger than a typical British "pea shooter", but it did sound nice. Also, is your G/D larger bore or really small bore?

I agree with Tim. Nice work.

Olds Standard - 0.485"/0.500" dual bore tenor
Boosey & Hawkes Imperial G/D bass - 0.5265" bore

I thought it looked familiar. Mine is an ML, which I believe was one size larger and mine has an 8" (200mm) bell. I found the horn to be extremely difficult to play for long periods of time without a counterweight. But these have little to do with the fact that the sound of the small bore Olds trombones matched with the medium bore G/D is a pleasant combination.

Never let it be said that the G/D cannot work in a modern orchestra, either. In the right setting, it functions perfectly well.

The challenge, as always, when one is used to the dimensions of the B flat trombone, is to adjust to the different proportions of the instrument. In particular, it is very easy to overblow due to the smaller bore size. Making a well controlled sound, which is pleasing to the ear even at higher dynamic levels, is a big part of the challenge.

Wow, what a beauty!…

I've had Ed dep a couple of times with me. With smaller tenors it's a very distinctive sound that makes perfect sense in the appropriate repertoire. It also requires an appropriate tuba (British F if possible, otherwise smaller Eb).

I recently saw the Age of Enlightenment Orchestra playing Saint-Saens with peashooter trombones and long-F trumpets. A fantastic and distinctive sound that gets the point across without the devastation of a modern section.

[quote=DougHulme post_id=202338 time=1676507302 us'. One of my predecessors at the famous Portsmouth Citadel Band, Alan York was well known for his big sound
[/quote]
I have a recording of the band playing 'Triumph of Peace' ( Eric Ball) from I think 1968, big part for bass trom, could that be it?

Hi Stephen, yes that was Alan at his best and the very same horn is with me now - I should stir myself and get more aquainted with it! He passed away about 4 years ago his wife (at the age of 102) went last year. Yes it was 1968... Doug

It was a great sound, and he lived to a great age. It's a fine live record, all bands on it are on top form.
I found an MP3 of the track on the web, it's the fifth one on the album Brass International
https://www.regalzonophone.com/Albums/B ... ernational

Just got my own .485 Imperial... someday I will have a Betty!

I have one the same as yours Aiden. I cut the gooseneck, and added a loop to bring the pitch down to F. Used it for a number of Mozart operas, as well as Gluck' "Ephigenie", the first opera that featured trombones. It worked GREAT with a Bach alto and Conn 6H!! I created my own small shank 1 1/2G, cutting the shank off a small shank 6 1/2AL and threading it onto the cup of the 1 1/2G.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 9:39 pm I cut the gooseneck, and added a loop to bring the pitch down to F.

Does the slide still have seven positions?

I have a small shank 3G I'm trying it with at the moment, seems to work. German intonation is very exaggerated on this horn, very flat 3rd partial and very high 5th.

Does the slide still have seven positions?

Yes, a low B was easy with the handle.

Last Summer I managed to put together an old-style UK section for an Elgar play day. 2 pea shooters, G bass (smaller than a Betty, but with a D valve), and, of course, a Besson F tuba. Just sounded right for the music. We're not sure, but it's possible that the last time that bass and tuba were together was in Manchester around a century ago.

If any of you want to trade a DE LB 110/111 Wide rim for my gold plated Bach 1G small shank to play with your G basses let me know!