Conn 88H vs. 8H

[GLT]

I am a long-time King 3B player but a year or so ago I acquired a 1972 Conn 88H and am enjoying it a lot. However, I hardly ever use the trigger and would be interested in hearing from those of you who have used both the 88H and 8H without the trigger. How do they compare? Thanks for your feedback!

[Burgerbob]

A good 8H is very, very good. If I were an orchestra principal and I knew a work was not going to need a valve, I might consider owning one... but that valve comes in handy a little too much for me to consider ever getting one.

[hyperbolica]

I've got both. The 8h is obviously a little lighter. I think its also a little harder to hold unless you have big hands. The bell brace is further back than the trigger on the 88h. I use my 8h for first parts in the orchestra.

There's also some variation from horn to horn that will depend on the life each has lived. For example if the bell has been repaired or removed, or there's some tension in the bell section, etc.

I play mine with 525 slides, but they are all great instruments.

[although]

Yeah, that bell brace on the 8H is remarkably far back. I actually pop my neotech grip on it to make it a more comfortable hold. My 8H is my first choice if the music will allow. Mostly I like it because it's light and low maintenance. It's got no bad habits and sounds like (I think) a big tenor ought to.

Cheers!

[Thrawn22]

Older 8Hs (Elkhart era)are awkward to hold because of where the bell braces are located. The newer 8Hs I've played don't have that problem.

Comparing 88Hs and 8Hs is a bit like apples and oranges. With an 88H it's nice to have the option of the valve but not entirely necessary. I've always used an 8H and rarely finding myself wushing i had a valve for something. The valve can also cause some stuffiness in the horn compared to the straight bell. In the end it really matters what you want.

[timbone]

Most players miss the opportunity to play a straight .547 and in this case a Conn8H. I own both and frankly an elkhart bell unfettered by a valve is probably the most true trombone sound and feel. Its okay to go without your training wheels lol, the value of a straight trombone will show itself in its tone and playability,and oftentimes, they can be had on the cheap!

[Matt K]

A good 8H is very, very good. If I were an orchestra principal and I knew a work was not going to need a valve, I might consider owning one... but that valve comes in handy a little too much for me to consider ever getting one.

Totally agree. I think valves get a bad rap because it hasn't always been easy to find a tech to get them setup right... and of course some of the design issues with the most popular F attachment instruments, particularly throughout the 70s-90s. The alignment really has to be spot on, but a well-designed rotor that is aligned, and assembled with minimal stress, I find that the difference is really not that great and provides such enormous utility. Especially as someone with short arms But for orchestral playing, especially principal, the extra weight is not necessary and that is really nice. Although the more I think about it, I wonder if I were doing a lot of principal orchestral playing if I wouldn't default to a G attachment. It's almost as light as a straight horn and provides utility even in the middle registers.

[spencercarran]

Although the more I think about it, I wonder if I were doing a lot of principal orchestral playing if I wouldn't default to a G attachment. It's almost as light as a straight horn and provides utility even in the middle registers.

The more I play my F/G/Eb indy bass, the more I resent the F tuning on my tenor. G is much, much more useful in the middle register, and it's not like you need C2 in any sensibly-orchestrated tenor trombone parts.

[Matt K]

Yeah. I was thinking about having my 500/525 pitched in G but for soloing, I use the low range a lot so I'm conflicted about it. When I win the lottery, I'll have someone make me a set of indy hagmanns for my 607F project

[pjanda1]

I've got two Elkhart 8Hs right now. I've had and sold two Elkhart 88Hs. Of them, I thought one was pretty good, but it was not nearly as good as either 8H. They are not the same thing just with or without a valve. For me, absent the rotor, my 8Hs feel much more open, much more focused, and are much better at dynamic extremes than an 88H with a conventional rotor.

I've been pondering an extended rant about how bad conventional rotors are. I grew up with a Thayer (Edwards) and have very limited tolerance for any of them, with the possible exception of my bass, likely because as a tenor player, the change in response and feel is not as apparent. And a 1934 TIS 70H is sort of a different beast, regardless.

At least good Elkhart 88Hs can be tolerable. By contrast, I've never played a Bach with a conventional valve that I could stand. And just today, I was trying to explain in a gentle way how much I hate a colleague's King 3BF as compared to, well, nearly any straight small tenor I've played, student horns included.

I've got a franken-Conn with an instrument Innovations valve. I plan to get it working better for when I need an F attachment. Or, there is also my old Edwards. And, I'm happier forcing the occasional false C/D/Eb on a straight horn than having a valve and having literally every other note play worse.

The hand grip on 8Hs is not ergonomically great because of the bell brace location. My hands aren't small, but I can't use an 8H at length without a Wise grip.

I think everybody owes it to themselves to try a straight large tenor (though maybe not, say, a straight Edwards that doesn't have, IMO, a full seventh position). But if folks keep ignoring these great horns, that just leaves more of them for the rest of us. My newest acquisition, a Holton TR-156 (really a 256, as I understand it), will be here in a few days. So, ignore me and let those prices stay low!

Paul

[craign]

My newest acquisition, a Holton TR-156 (really a 256, as I understand it), will be here in a few days. So, ignore me and let those prices stay low!

The one that was on eBay this week? That was tempting.

[craign]

And I will add to the chorus that older 8H braces can be an awkward reach. I'm using a neotech on mine at the moment.

[glr12]

Carl Wilhelm (principal in Pittsburgh) played an old 8H because he thought it sounded better than an 88H. I bought one of his backup 8Hs and it was the best horn I ever played, using it throughout my time in The United States Army Band. Two others in the band also opted for an 8H.

[Bach5G]

I find I prefer my straight .547 Shires to using my F att. I like the way it plays and sounds.

[Soulbrass]

I have a '62 Elkhart 8H...regarding the position of the forward bell brace - yes, it can be awkward to hold IF you try to hold the horn by hooking your thumb AROUND the brace (like you would hold most straight horns). I find that simply extending your thumb along the gooseneck is very comfortable because the horn is light and, with a counterweight in place, very well-balanced.

[biggiesmalls]

One elegant solution to the bell brace distance issue is simply to change the hand position on the slide brace using the grip position suggested here by Doug Yeo:

https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/f ... nsion.html

This is especially effective on the 8H, as well as all those early hand-biting Conn peashooters with their short cork barrels.

And I completely agree with Soulbrass: resting the thumb along the gooseneck or even under the receiver results in much better ergonomics than trying to grip the bell brace with the thumb.

[MahlerMusic]

I can't speak to the brace as my 8H and 88H are modern. I play my 88H far more but I prefer to play the 8H. I just need a full concert set that does not require the F att.
I even got a very small Easter Church gig with a small quartet and of course the very last note is a low D below the staff.

[Soulbrass]

With the help of Pete Francis and The Baltimore Brass Company, I’ve ended up with, to me, is the best of all worlds:

[UATrombone]

WOW, congratulations!!!
It's my dream to do such mods with my 88HCL valve when I find good Elkie 8H.

[Soulbrass]

WOW, congratulations!!!
It's my dream to do such mods with my 88HCL valve when I find good Elkie 8H.

Thanks! I really do love it!

In hindsight, my lessons learned are:

1) Spend a lot of time playing the straight 8H…make sure you love it!
2) Don’t sacrifice a great horn just to add an f-section…it’s a legit choice to just buy a second horn with a F-section.
3) Strategize the build with YOUR priorities (many thanks to Pete Francis/Baltimore Brass for laying out the options and working through lots of logistical challenges (small parts availability from several manufacturers ).
4) Be patient…the project, from drawing board to bench to concert hall, was over a year. Stay the course! (I almost succumbed to impatience…so glad I didn’t!)

I also have the luxury/flexibility of leadpipe selection because the previous owner had the inner slides replaced and an Instrument Innovations bi-threaded collar installed. Huge!

Good luck with yours!