Bass trombones with slide handle

[JamesSp]

Hi all,

I've been reading up on some trombone history recently and having some discussions over bass trombone development with friends.

Im interested, but It seems a little tricky to find literature surrounding bass trombone development. I'm particularly interested in learning more about bass trombones with slide extension handles. Is there a good resource somewhere that details things like common bore size for f or g bass trombones? How about which countries (or specific orchestras) had a preference for F, or G bass trombones (and the details surrounding the design of those instruments) and timeframes of them being commonplace?

[BGuttman]

There is a lot of that information here, buried in some older topics.

Slide handles were used on instruments pitched in F or G, where a 7 position slide was too long for a human arm to extend.

The F trombone was used in Europe; mostly in Central and Eastern Europe. Bores were relatively large.

The G trombone was used in Great Britain and the British Empire. Trombones that were contemporary with the G bass were very small bore, so the G bass came with a just sub-0.500" bore or 0.525" bore. Orchestral players used instruments with a rotary valve change to D.

The development of the "Tenor-Bass" trombone; a Bb trombone equipped with an F valve, spelled the end of the line for both of these.

More recently the F trombone was adapted as the Contrabass (and no slide handle; just 2 rotor valves), although I almost bought an Alexander instrument that was in F with a C attachment that used a handle.

In the Renaissance, bass trombones were in F or Eb and used a 7 position slide with a handle. If you want to see what one looked like, find a post by LeTromboniste and look at his avatar.

[JamesSp]

There is a lot of that information here, buried in some older topics.

Slide handles were used on instruments pitched in F or G, where a 7 position slide was too long for a human arm to extend.

The F trombone was used in Europe; mostly in Central and Eastern Europe. Bores were relatively large.

The G trombone was used in Great Britain and the British Empire. Trombones that were contemporary with the G bass were very small bore, so the G bass came with a just sub-0.500" bore or 0.525" bore. Orchestral players used instruments with a rotary valve change to D.

The development of the "Tenor-Bass" trombone; a Bb trombone equipped with an F valve, spelled the end of the line for both of these.

More recently the F trombone was adapted as the Contrabass (and no slide handle; just 2 rotor valves), although I almost bought an Alexander instrument that was in F with a C attachment that used a handle.

In the Renaissance, bass trombones were in F or Eb and used a 7 position slide with a handle. If you want to see what one looked like, find a post by LeTromboniste and look at his avatar.

Thanks! That's very helpful. I didn't realise that the F and G basses had a notably different bore size. I've played an Alexander F contra with a handle for the ring cycle, was quite a learning curve but I had assumed older F basses were not really comparable to something like that. I had assumed the bore size for F and G basses was somewhat similar. When you say bores were relatively large for those old F basses do you mean they were comparable to an F contra like the alexander?

[EdwardSolomon]

Thanks! That's very helpful. I didn't realise that the F and G basses had a notably different bore size. I've played an Alexander F contra with a handle for the ring cycle, was quite a learning curve but I had assumed older F basses were not really comparable to something like that. I had assumed the bore size for F and G basses was somewhat similar. When you say bores were relatively large for those old F basses do you mean they were comparable to an F contra like the alexander?

I own and play two G bass trombones and one F bass trombone. The bore sizes are not that dissimilar, contrary to Bruce's assertion.

The G bass trombone went through an evolution during the 100+ years of its development and existence in bands and orchestras. Although the Terzposaune was in existence during the Renaissance, the G bass trombone came into its own probably in France during the first half of the 19th century. This was then imported to Britain along with the F alto and C tenor. For a time, these were used before being replaced by E flat alto and B flat tenor, though the G bass continued to be used, eventually acquiring a D attachment during the second half of the 19th century, though this was not in widespread use until the mid-20th century.

The G bass trombone bore size increased several times (along with that of the other trombone sizes), though not by very much. The largest size produced of the straight G bass was 0.487", while the G/D bass in the William Betty configuration produced by Boosey & Hawkes was 0.5265". This model was produced until 1978. More details of the history of the G bass trombone are available in Gavin Dixon's Farewell to the Kidshifter published by the Historic Brass Society.

The F bass trombone similarly went through an evolution and was used primarily in the German-speaking lands of Central Europe. The French preferred a bass trombone in E flat, though like the F bass, it was not popular due to its unwieldy size. The F bass trombone was mostly considered a military band instrument, as described in method books of the period. Moreover, after the development of the B flat/F tenorbass trombone, the F bass continued to exist almost entirely as either a wider bore military band instrument, or as a narrower bore church instrument (Kirchenposaune), used in what became the Posaunenchor movement.

The F bass I own was made for this latter purpose and dates from the immediate post-WWII period. It was made in the German Democratic Republic and has a bore size of 0.500" with a 10" bell, so actually smaller in the slide bore than the G/D bass trombone, but with a much larger bell diameter and faster bell expansion.

You can see these instruments on my website: https://www.edwardsolomon.co.uk/.

[LeTromboniste]

Good post by Edward above!

Bass trombones with handles date back to at least the late 16th century. Sources from the time usually describe an instrument in D (although with the higher pitch of the time, that is the length of an instrument in Eb or E at a modern pitch), with a long slide with a handle and what we would call 6 positions. Some instruments even have two handles (!), with the second one attached to the back bow and used to push the back slide, not for tuning but for a quick extension to play the otherwise missing low Eb (because of the lacking 7th position).

A couple precisions to complement things already said:

Although the Terzposaune was in existence during the Renaissance, the G bass trombone came into its own probably in France during the first half of the 19th century.

In the Renaissance and baroque era, a "Terzposaune" would be in F, not in G, as the common tenor was then in A (not in Bb). A tenor trombone in A could be lengthened with a whole-tone crook into an instrument in G, and with further crooks down to F or lower, although of course without a slide handle. Purpose-built bass instruments in G and F with a long slide and handle were also common alongside the Quart/Quintposaune in D. In fact the earliest surviving bass trombone is in G, with a handle, made by Pierre Colbert in Reims in 1593, currently held at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam. It is quite probable that many instruments in D could be reassembled without the back loop and set up to play in G (and that some or most of the many surviving basses in G from the time used to have a removable crook for D).

I don't think I agree that G basses were developed independently from this in the 19th century. Such instruments were in continuous use in Austria (one of the only places were trombones were used at all), down to Mozart's time, and they also were building new ones (one of the four surviving Viennese classical-era trombones is a bass in G, built in 1813, with a longer slide but no handle, and the same bore but a larger bell as the tenors). They are also described in 1820's sources, although by then more seen as military band instruments. This continued use draws a direct lineage from the Renaissance all the way into the 19th century.

The F bass trombone similarly went through an evolution and was used primarily in the German-speaking lands of Central Europe. The French preferred a bass trombone in E flat, though like the F bass, it was not popular due to its unwieldy size. The F bass trombone was mostly considered a military band instrument, as described in method books of the period. Moreover, after the development of the B flat/F tenorbass trombone, the F bass continued to exist almost entirely as either a wider bore military band instrument, or as a narrower bore church instrument (Kirchenposaune), used in what became the Posaunenchor movement.

Eb basses were used in Germany, as well as F basses and obviously Bb and later Bb/F instruments. If I recall correctly, Berlioz describes the practice in Berlin when he visited as always having an Eb bass on the 3rd trombone, and sometimes an extra (!) Eb bass to play the ophicleide/cimbasso/serpent/tuba parts. In France, neither the F or Eb bass saw much (if any) use at all, and they are described by Berlioz and others as essentially nonexistent.

England G basses.

F basses (with valves, not slide) were not uncommon in Italy and Austria after the switch to valves in the 1830's


Regarding bores and specs, they varied a lot depending on time and place, like for tenors. Keep in mind that long basses generally fell out of use before the advent of the modern very large and very standardized bore sizes. And where they did stay in use longer happens to be where very small tenors remained the standard until very late, so it's not surprising that English G basses are so small. German F basses vary a lot in bore, just as their trombones and other brass instruments did across the board.

[JamesSp]

Exactly the sort of replies I was looking for, thank you everyone.

[EdwardSolomon]

I don't think I agree that G basses were developed independently from this in the 19th century. Such instruments were in continuous use in Austria (one of the only places were trombones were used at all), down to Mozart's time, and they also were building new ones (one of the four surviving Viennese classical-era trombones is a bass in G, built in 1813, with a longer slide but no handle, and the same bore but a larger bell as the tenors). They are also described in 1820's sources, although by then more seen as military band instruments. This continued use draws a direct lineage from the Renaissance all the way into the 19th century.

Specifically in the context of French instruments, the bass trombone had dropped out of common use and was largely regarded as obsolete, certainly by the late 1820s. There is, I believe, little to connect Paris or Brussels with Vienna or elsewhere in the German-speaking parts of Europe in terms of instrument manufacture, certainly with respect to bass trombones. The French were already using B flat and C tenor and F alto trombones by the time the G bass trombone began to make its appearance.

The assumption that the British G bass trombone was simply a shortened version of the F bass trombone due to its unwieldy size carries little weight in the face of convincing evidence from French use, so much so that it is highly likely that when the trombone was reintroduced to the British Isles during the 19th century (it had become completely obsolete), it was brought over from France together with the F alto and C tenor, though these latter were later dropped in favour of the E flat alto (which remained in use in military bands and orchestras until the end of the 19th century in Britain) and the B flat tenor. There was a time according to brass band records that the C and B flat tenor trombones were used in approximately equal numbers before the C tenor was gradually dropped.

Again, I really don't think that there is any connection between the British or French G bass trombone and that of Vienna or elsewhere during the Classical era or earlier.

[LeTromboniste]

I don't think I agree that G basses were developed independently from this in the 19th century. Such instruments were in continuous use in Austria (one of the only places were trombones were used at all), down to Mozart's time, and they also were building new ones (one of the four surviving Viennese classical-era trombones is a bass in G, built in 1813, with a longer slide but no handle, and the same bore but a larger bell as the tenors). They are also described in 1820's sources, although by then more seen as military band instruments. This continued use draws a direct lineage from the Renaissance all the way into the 19th century.

Specifically in the context of French instruments, the bass trombone had dropped out of common use and was largely regarded as obsolete, certainly by the late 1820s. There is, I believe, little to connect Paris or Brussels with Vienna or elsewhere in the German-speaking parts of Europe in terms of instrument manufacture, certainly with respect to bass trombones. The French were already using B flat and C tenor and F alto trombones by the time the G bass trombone began to make its appearance.

The assumption that the British G bass trombone was simply a shortened version of the F bass trombone due to its unwieldy size carries little weight in the face of convincing evidence from French use, so much so that it is highly likely that when the trombone was reintroduced to the British Isles during the 19th century (it had become completely obsolete), it was brought over from France together with the F alto and C tenor, though these latter were later dropped in favour of the E flat alto (which remained in use in military bands and orchestras until the end of the 19th century in Britain) and the B flat tenor. There was a time according to brass band records that the C and B flat tenor trombones were used in approximately equal numbers before the C tenor was gradually dropped.

Again, I really don't think that there is any connection between the British or French G bass trombone and that of Vienna or elsewhere during the Classical era or earlier.

Well it's all conjecture and hypothesis on my part at this point. But we know the trombone was reintroduced in France via players of Germanic origins, the main maker in Paris at the turn of the century was Riedlocker (French but of Germanic origins), whose instruments have much more in common in shape and dimensions to the Austrian trombones than to the Saxon ones (which were essentially the two main places where trombones stayed in use through the 18th century), and the reintroduction of the trombone was due at least in part by Viennese music becoming fashionable in Paris and requiring trombones. So there is definitely some connections, although those might indeed be too early to link the Austrian G bass with the British one.

[LeTromboniste]

Well, with almost impeccable timing, there was a great presentation by Arnold Myers at the Romantic Brass Symposium yesterday about precisely the history of the British G bass trombone and many of the things we discussed here. I would look for that paper when the proceedings of the conference are published in a few months!

[DougHulme]

Besides our resident experts here Edward and Maximillian you could also google Nicholas Eastop and get in touch with him. He lives in Sweden but is English and has some role as curator or something in an instrument museum in Sweden but he is very knowedgable about the history of the bass trombone and is a bass trombonist himslef (Chamber Orchestra of Europe). I dont think he is a member here? Well worth talking to though... Doug

[jonathanharker]

I been gradually updating the bass trombone Wikipedia article, but I need to dig into all the awesome pearls in this thread. Thanks everyone!

[HowardW]

Well, with almost impeccable timing, there was a great presentation by Arnold Myers at the Romantic Brass Symposium yesterday about precisely the history of the British G bass trombone and many of the things we discussed here. I would look for that paper when the proceedings of the conference are published in a few months!

In a few months? The proceedings of the Bern symposia generally appear 4-5 years after the event.

Howard

[jonathanharker]

Well, with almost impeccable timing, there was a great presentation by Arnold Myers at the Romantic Brass Symposium yesterday about precisely the history of the British G bass trombone and many of the things we discussed here. I would look for that paper when the proceedings of the conference are published in a few months!

In a few months? The proceedings of the Bern symposia generally appear 4-5 years after the event.

Howard

...I don't suppose this has happened yet? I wonder if its similar content to his recent article for the Historic Brass Society Journal. I've emailed him about it but not had a response yet.

[HowardW]

In a few months? The proceedings of the Bern symposia generally appear 4-5 years after the event.

Howard

...I don't suppose this has happened yet? I wonder if its similar content to his recent article for the Historic Brass Society Journal. I've emailed him about it but not had a response yet.

As it turns out, Arnold's article in HBSJ 35 is pretty much the same as the paper he read in Bern.
Howard