TromboneChat

Hello everyone, lately i was wondering if its really worth to have shallow mp on a .500 for lead jazz on the high register. And i wanted to ask: has anyone had some kind of experience with those rare shallow mouthpieces? (And im not talking about 7C, 12C, 11C) I mean like very shallow and small (past 12C at least)
to give some examples 15C, 8 1/2BW, 15CW, 17C, 18C anything within that range.
Did it make high notes actually easy? Pros? Cons? Range? Flexibility? Articultations? Tone?
It would really help me to know what you think or what experience you had mostly the most experienced players.
Thank you!

Hi!

It looks like you're talking about two different things: depth and diameter.

The mouthpieces that you listed as shallow also have smaller room diameters. However, some pieces can have larger rim diameters but still be shallow, and vice versa.

Regardless, I have experimented with different mouthpiece depths including the ones that you are describing. In my experience, the rim diameter (assuming it works with your embouchure) will primarily regulate low overtones, while the cup depth will primarily regulate high overtones. Meaning, a cup that is very shallow will have a lot of high overtones, creating almost like a "hiss" or "rasp" on top of the sound. A cup that is deep can sometimes lack high overtones, creating kind of a "boomy" sound.

I have not found cup depth to help with range or register in any way. I find a smaller diameter can sometimes help with endurance but if it doesn't fit the embouchure, this is not a good trade-off, because it will become difficult to center notes. I have also not found the cup depth to really change flexibility in any way. The main advantage of a really shallow piece is the sound quality, if one wants those extra highs to blend with trumpets or punch through loud amplified bands.

Most players will tell you that a mouthpiece has to be balanced in all of its components in order to work properly and sound good. I have some mouthpieces that are quite shallow that work very well and sound very good in spite of having that extra hiss on top of the sound. For example, Doug's B cup and Warburton M cup mouthpieces have designs which blend the transition between the rim and shallower cups very smoothly and comfortably, allowing for enough lip to fit in the mouthpiece even if the diameter is larger, and they also have backbore designs which facilitate intonation and good, balanced sound in spite of the additional high overtones. I have a Purviance 4*3 which is even shallower and has a great sound, although it is more shrill than those other two.

Personally, I often use mouthpieces that are slightly shallower than a Bach C cup because I am often playing in three-horn sections in rock bands. The big advantage to me is the ability to blend with the trumpet or edgy rock saxophone, along with the ability to get my sound to "sit on top" of a rock band when I want, without using too much air. I don't go very much shallower than that because it just gets too shrill for my tastes.

Hopefully that makes sense ; let me know if I can clarify.

Hi! Thank you so much for your response, it bring up concepts that i didnt have considered, i have this to say:
In the post i referred to shallow mouthpieces in general, the ones i mentioned were just examples and to clarify that i was not considering 12C or below to be "very shallow". probably the size following 12C is the 15C in terms of cup and size, but i havent seen any mouthpiece more shallow than the a 12C, so i dont know how much is step from one to another.

Searching in this forum i read many times that cup depth changes high and low frequencies based on how deep or shallow they are, and in theory it makes high or low notes easier. i dont know how much of truth is in that. What i feel is exactly as you said, And it dosent change flexibility (although for some reason i feel deep mouthpieces feel more controlled in terms of sound)

Speaking of diameter, i agree that it dosent affect the HIGH range. i ve found that in some mouthpieces with bigger diameter low notes above low Bb are slightly easier, but thats my experience.
As you said, i feel that soemtimes diameter affects endurance, i can play for much longer in my 12C or 7C than my 4C or 5GS, as more air is blown.

What i dont understand yet very well is waht goes on below the cup, backbore, throat. i never payed much attention to that, but some players says that really affects the sound.

Thats what i understand, i have limited knowledge about mouthpieces in general since i never really digged much into that. thing is, i really want to learn how to play small mouthpieces for lead playing since i want that very brilliant sound. But when i pick my 12C and attacks feel uncomfortable i think if its really worth to go even smaller and shallower than that, and since i havent even seen a 15C or a 8 1/2BW (for example), i wanted to read some experiences.

Thank you for your answer it helps me a lot to read advices about mouthpieces since i dont know much about it.

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 3:16 am Hello everyone, lately i was wondering if its really worth to have shallow mp on a .500 for lead jazz on the high register. And i wanted to ask: has anyone had some kind of experience with those rare shallow mouthpieces? (And im not talking about 7C, 12C, 11C) I mean like very shallow and small (past 12C at least)
to give some examples 15C, 8 1/2BW, 15CW, 17C, 18C anything within that range.
Did it make high notes actually easy? Pros? Cons? Range? Flexibility? Articultations? Tone?
It would really help me to know what you think or what experience you had mostly the most experienced players.
Thank you!

A shallow mouthpiece may work for you or it may just cut down your range/endurance and sound

what do you currently play on? what is your practice regime?

or save time and money and get in touch with Doug Elliott

I used an A Elliott cup for awhile. It’s… very very shallow. It kind of worked, because it was on a relatively large horn that needed some brightening up. I eventually switched to an E depth though.

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 4:40 am

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 3:16 am Hello everyone, lately i was wondering if its really worth to have shallow mp on a .500 for lead jazz on the high register. And i wanted to ask: has anyone had some kind of experience with those rare shallow mouthpieces? (And im not talking about 7C, 12C, 11C) I mean like very shallow and small (past 12C at least)
to give some examples 15C, 8 1/2BW, 15CW, 17C, 18C anything within that range.
Did it make high notes actually easy? Pros? Cons? Range? Flexibility? Articultations? Tone?
It would really help me to know what you think or what experience you had mostly the most experienced players.
Thank you!

A shallow mouthpiece may work for you or it may just cut down your range/endurance and sound

what do you currently play on? what is your practice regime?

or save time and money and get in touch with Doug Elliott

I mostly Play on a Bach 4C. It the Mouthpiece that my lips feel the most comfortable all around the registers on average, though sometimes endurance is a problem.
I'm focusing lately on the Remington "security on the upper register" excercises.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:09 am I used an A Elliott cup for awhile. It’s… very very shallow. It kind of worked, because it was on a relatively large horn that needed some brightening up. I eventually switched to an E depth though.

I once tried a Doug Elliot Mouthpiece on a Wind instruments shop in New York City. I think it was a D Cup, i cant remember well. My lips weren't completly comfortable so i ended up getting a 11C instead.

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:30 am

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:09 am I used an A Elliott cup for awhile. It’s… very very shallow. It kind of worked, because it was on a relatively large horn that needed some brightening up. I eventually switched to an E depth though.

I once tried a Doug Elliot Mouthpiece on a Wind instruments shop in New York City. I think it was a D Cup, i cant remember well. My lips weren't completly comfortable so i ended up getting a 11C instead.

So talk to Doug, he will be able to give you all the info on your embouchure type/set up and the most efficient rim size etc for your chops

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 3:16 am Hello everyone, lately i was wondering if its really worth to have shallow mp on a .500 for lead jazz on the high register. And i wanted to ask: has anyone had some kind of experience with those rare shallow mouthpieces? (And im not talking about 7C, 12C, 11C) I mean like very shallow and small (past 12C at least)
to give some examples 15C, 8 1/2BW, 15CW, 17C, 18C anything within that range.
Did it make high notes actually easy? Pros? Cons? Range? Flexibility? Articultations? Tone?
It would really help me to know what you think or what experience you had mostly the most experienced players.
Thank you!

I use a very shallow mouthpiece on alto and also on my 3B. It makes the high notes clearer and easier to play reliably.

You are possibly confusing cup width with cup depth, but maybe not. The mouthpieces you listed are very narrow cups. Old school designs change the cup width with the cup depth like that.

For me, having a good range is all about having the cup width fit your face properly, so that your embouchure can function. The cup depth is about getting the sound right, and improving endurance and reliability in the register the cup was meant for. The upper register needs a lot of fast air so my mouthpieces with shallow cups have a wider throat diameter in most cases.

When you get into these 15C sizes or whatever, those are too narrow for most people's embouchures to function in. I could barely make a sound on one of those, let alone play upstairs.

Knowing nothing other than that you play a 4C, I'd recommend a Doug Elliott XT103/C or C+, and the shank that is made for your horn. If that is actually the setup that fits your face best, it won't be the mouthpiece holding back anything in your range. For reference I play a DE XT106N/A with the alto shank on the highest alto parts, and while it sounds great in the typical alto register, it is a terrible choice for general playing on tenor, because it's just too shallow for the low register. You need the right tool for the job.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 6:06 am

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 3:16 am Hello everyone, lately i was wondering if its really worth to have shallow mp on a .500 for lead jazz on the high register. And i wanted to ask: has anyone had some kind of experience with those rare shallow mouthpieces? (And im not talking about 7C, 12C, 11C) I mean like very shallow and small (past 12C at least)
to give some examples 15C, 8 1/2BW, 15CW, 17C, 18C anything within that range.
Did it make high notes actually easy? Pros? Cons? Range? Flexibility? Articultations? Tone?
It would really help me to know what you think or what experience you had mostly the most experienced players.
Thank you!

I use a very shallow mouthpiece on alto and also on my 3B. It makes the high notes clearer and easier to play reliably.

You are possibly confusing cup width with cup depth, but maybe not. The mouthpieces you listed are very narrow cups. Old school designs change the cup width with the cup depth like that.

For me, having a good range is all about having the cup width fit your face properly, so that your embouchure can function. The cup depth is about getting the sound right, and improving endurance and reliability in the register the cup was meant for. The upper register needs a lot of fast air so my mouthpieces with shallow cups have a wider throat diameter in most cases.

When you get into these 15C sizes or whatever, those are too narrow for most people's embouchures to function in. I could barely make a sound on one of those, let alone play upstairs.

Thanks for the answer, may i ask what setup do you use for your King 3B?

I understand that most designers make narrow rims with shallow cups, but thing is that to get a very bright sound im looking the cup must be narrow and shallow (as far as i understand)
I m not that into mouthpieces, when i read the charts and it descriptions it confuses me even more, thats why i asked for experiences and advices with shallow mouthpuecies, because charts often say that are easy to play with easy high register and endurance.
I take what you said about the 15C being too narrow for an average player so thanks for the advice.

Just to clarify for the sake of this conversation. I see 3 pointsbut several appear to be used interchangablely.

1. Cup depth - original poster suggests shallower cup is brighter
2. Cup width - historically cup width and depth were somewhat interconnected - Narrower/shallower and wider/deeper
3. Rim width - different point but appears to have been interchanged with "cup width" at times in this thread.

I gravitate towards two horns - my .522" Conn 79H and .485" Conn 24H. I have Doug Elliott setups for both. Like the original poster, I find a wider but shallower cup to work better for me. Doug fitted me with the LT102/D/D4 combo on the the 79H. For the smaller horns, I use the same LT102 rim on a slightly shallower C+ cup and D2 shank. I also use the LT102 rim on large bore horns with a cup/shank change. One rim to rule them all!

What horns do you play?
What is your range like on the big horn with 4G?
How long have you been playing and what is your experience? Are you in high school, college, beyond?

Any advice I give has to start with some perspective.

A shallow cup give me a lighter sound, a sound with more distinct higher overtones. A deeper cup gives a deeper sound, more of the fundamental. A wider rim can give you more room, but can also be a lot heavier to play. I get more tired if I play a larger rim. I also get more tired if I play a deeper cup. For me something in the size of a 11C is what works best on smaller bores where I usually play first or second bone parts.

/Tom

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 6:16 am
Thanks for the answer, may i ask what setup do you use for your King 3B?

I understand that most designers make narrow rims with shallow cups, but thing is that to get a very bright sound im looking the cup must be narrow and shallow (as far as i understand)
I m not that into mouthpieces, when i read the charts and it descriptions it confuses me even more, thats why i asked for experiences and advices with shallow mouthpuecies, because charts often say that are easy to play with easy high register and endurance.
I take what you said about the 15C being too narrow for an average player so thanks for the advice.

I play a mouthpiece that I specifically designed for the 3B that is a one off, but what I had before is not so different from it. I used to use the Doug Elliott C+ cup with the D3 shank. You just need an appropriate rim that feels good and works with your face. It's a fantastic small bore setup.

The issue with narrow cup widths, like the 15C, is that unless it's a good fit for your face, your embouchure is going to be limited from the small adjustments that you need to do as you move through the different registers. It's the same thing with a cup width that is too wide -- there is so much room that your lips are too spread and it's inefficient.

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:14 am A shallow cup give me a lighter sound, a sound with more distinct higher overtones. A deeper cup gives a deeper sound, more of the fundamental. A wider rim can give you more room, but can also be a lot heavier to play i get more tired if I play a larger rim. I also get more tired if I play a deeper cup. For me something in the size of a 11C is what works.

/Tom

I alwayas associated wide rims with endurance issues, but thats the only way to feel comfortable, For Some reason 7C feels brighter than 11C though.

I have experimented with a Schilke 43A on alto and a Bach 12E on small bore tenor. Both extremely shallow. For me, they tend to make the sound brighter and trumpety. I did feel it helped a little to make the notes at the upper end of the range a little more secure, but no dramatic change in range. I have just acquired a 47B Schilke for smallbore tests as well. Not quite as shallow , but shallower than most C cups. Not a lot of data yet on that.

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 3:49 pm

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 11:14 am A shallow cup give me a lighter sound, a sound with more distinct higher overtones. A deeper cup gives a deeper sound, more of the fundamental. A wider rim can give you more room, but can also be a lot heavier to play i get more tired if I play a larger rim. I also get more tired if I play a deeper cup. For me something in the size of a 11C is what works.

/Tom

I alwayas associated wide rims with endurance issues, but thats the only way to feel comfortable, For Some reason 7C feels brighter than 11C though.

For me the 7C is one of the rare that I feel more uncomfortable to play. It's something with the inner edge of that rim that's just makes it more difficult for me. For years I played a Benge 12C and liked it a lot then I found a Mnt Vernon 12C that I liked a lot better. Used it too for years until I tried a Bach 6 3/4C. That's also a very fine mouthpiece. Then I discovered the Marcinkiewicz signature series (Lloyd Ulyate, David Steinmeier, Charlie Looper, Jiggs Whigham etc). Got them all, real good. Also discovered the Conn 3 mouthpiece. All these are so great, all in the size of about a 11C which seems to be a best match for me. Then just a couple of years ago I found the Yamaha Nils Landgren mouthpiece. It's a bit larger compared to the others and so gives a bit deeper sound too, but still very comfortable and still endurable for me to play without getting tired. It's what I use.

My experience with smaller than 12C is only with alto. I use a Bach 12E on alto and that's a great combo for me. I've also tried the Bach 15E but find it a tad to narrow to be real comfortable especially since alto is something I do not practice a lot. I find the Bach 12E to give me the best sound on alto (tried several larger too but no).

/Tom

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 10:18 am What horns do you play?
What is your range like on the big horn with 4G?
How long have you been playing and what is your experience? Are you in high school, college, beyond?

Any advice I give has to start with some perspective.

Hi Doug!
I mostly play now on a Yamaha YSL 354 tenor trombone .500
On that horn i play a Bach 4C which is the mouthpiece that i feel more comfortable of all i tried. Although Partials feels kinda spread from one each other. Endurance is sometimes a problem. Range is good in general but i feel i could do more with a shallower mouthpiece.
I ve been playing for 7 Years now, mostly jazz on small gigs. So i always wanted that bright sound. Right now i m in college and i play on a big band there, 3rd trombone.

What you mean by "shallow" can vary a lot between players. I have a number of DE setups for horns down to 500 bore. Even when i played 485 bore the shallowest cup I've used is a C. I used a 15cl (Lindberg) when i played alto.

To me, the search is not about finding shallow pieces, but about matching a piece to a horn to get a sound or feel.

If the 4c feels the best on your face and your range is good then you shouldn’t change to a smaller diameter. You could go shallower than a C but that’s already shallow. That will impact the timbre more than how easy it is. It sounds like it’s the part below the cup which you can’t see (backbore) which might be too open for a .500 bore. I haven’t played a Bach 4c specifically but all the 4c sized pieces I tried before I got a DE setup had backbores which were too open for my horn. Always had great range and flexibility but they killed my endurance. It was very easy to play loud but everything else was difficult.

Now I play on an even larger diameter than a Bach 4 and a slightly deeper cup than a Bach C and my range and endurance are all better, but it only works because I have the right backbore for my instrument.

Fgal409 wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 4:37 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 10:18 am What horns do you play?
What is your range like on the big horn with 4G?
How long have you been playing and what is your experience? Are you in high school, college, beyond?

Any advice I give has to start with some perspective.

Hi Doug!
I mostly play now on a Yamaha YSL 354 tenor trombone .500
On that horn i play a Bach 4C which is the mouthpiece that i feel more comfortable of all i tried. Although Partials feels kinda spread from one each other. Endurance is sometimes a problem. Range is good in general but i feel i could do more with a shallower mouthpiece.
I ve been playing for 7 Years now, mostly jazz on small gigs. So i always wanted that bright sound. Right now i m in college and i play on a big band there, 3rd trombone.

There's lots of "conventional wisdom" and most of it is wrong.
You already know that you play best on large rim sizes. Me too, that's one of the reasons I make my own with lots of choices in that department. 102, 103, 104 rim sizes with standard, narrow, and medium-narrow widths. I like to see people play first because rim widths can and do make a big difference. My C cup with C2 backbore is similar depth to the 4C but more efficient. Going shallower, I have B+, B, and A cups but you may not reslly want shallower than a C. Especially playing 3rd in a big band.

Can add my current experience:

Am playing regularly in a Soul/R&B/Funk/'old-school' band with a King 2B SS.

Have been playing Doug Elliot setups now for over a year, and am using a LTN103 rim for my small bore use and large bore use.

I love the sound and feel I get from the C+ cup and D3 backbore over the entire range of the horn.

If I use the D2 backbore, there is still a great sound. But, things 'backup' a bit on the horn and then the rim starts to get that 'too small' feeling.

So, the C+ cup and D3 backbore do seem great (for me) with the King 2B. (The change in backbores is almost like having two different horns)

I have a D cup on order, and am curious to see how that will work with the D2 backbore. (or the D3)

(...with a D cup/D3 shank I'll probably sound like a legit player on a big horn! Have to see what happens)

I've used a Warburton 8S/4* as my main mouthpiece on small tenor for about a decade at this point. It's about 4G-sized but very shallow. I originally bought it to be a lead/salsa piece, but I've ended up using it for pretty much everything that's not classical. It's a fabulous mouthpiece. And yes, it has a ridiculous high register!