TromboneChat

I just have an equipment question, bear with me if this has been asked beforehand re, new here I play in only local community jazz and concert bands, do I really need a 0.563 with dual inline independent valves or larger bass bone? Doesn’t it only matter that I can play the parts well? I know that it would be really nice to have a big bass or if I was auditioning for a professional symphony orchestra or I was rich . If I can play the parts with a big sound on a 0.547 large bore tenor with single f attachment, isn’t that good enough?

Yes, it's good enough. If you want to upsize, try an older single-valve bass like a Conn 72H, Bach 50, etc.

Conn100HGuy wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 12:29 pm Yes, it's good enough. If you want to upsize, try an older single-valve bass like a Conn 72H, Bach 50, etc.

Really depends. I had a friend who loved to play the bass trombone parts on a King 3B-F. For some repertoire (especially stuff from the Big Band Era 1930-1960) it works fine.

For a community symphony orchestra or town band a large bore tenor will work fine on 3rd trombone parts, especially if they rarely go below low D.

Modern Big Band charts will require 2 valves and have a bunch of low C's or low B naturals. A symphonic tenor is just overmatched for these parts.

Also, if the rest of the section is playing large bore horns, trying to cover bass parts on a large bore is not going to work.

Nobody says you have to go get one of those small cannons if you can't afford one. Single valve basses or older doubles that are Bb/F/flat E can be made to work and won't be too expensive.

A yamaha 321/421 can be a cheap and good bass

Sure, you can play most bass trombone parts on a single valve tenor. But it's a lot of fun to learn how to play a double valve bass trombone.

DId the YBL-612 fall through?

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 3:11 pmThe large bore is just until I get my used YBL-612 from Japan and have it overhauled and tuned up. That will probably take a few weeks.

Yes, you definitely can use a symphonic-bore tenor (.547"-ish) with an f-attachment to play the vast majority of third trombone parts that you're likely to run into in a community concert band. Heck, the most of the parts in my folders right now don't required one valve, let alone two.

The reason I ask is it looks like I may have been scammed on eBay for a YBL-612 from Japan. By the time I get my money back, if I get the money back, and find another similar one at less than $1000, it could be months. I am going to have to use the Bach Omega for now, which is being delivered today.

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:13 pm The reason I ask is it looks like I may have been scammed on eBay for a YBL-612 from Japan. By the time I get my money back, if I get the money back, and find another similar one at less than $1000, it could be months. I am going to have to use the Bach Omega for now, which is being delivered today.

I've never seen one, but as I understand it, the Bach Omega is an "intermediate" level medium-bore (0.525") tenor trombone with F-attachment. This is NOT a large-bore (0.547") tenor. But perhaps your Bach Omega is indeed 0.547" bore. The 0.525" bore Omega employs a a small-shank mouthpiece, so I would understand your interest in a Yamaha 52S, which is perfectly compatible with the Omega without an adapter. The 52S and Omega should be a decent match. If your Omega is 0.547" bore, ignore all these comments. Then you should have a large-shank mouthpiece.

As far as your other question, unless you are playing modern (20th century and beyond) orchestral literature 3rd trombone parts, or recent (beyond the swing era) big-band 4th trombone charts, you will not need a monster bass trombone with two valves. A single-valve bass (such as the Yamaha 321 or 421-G) will more than suffice. You just need the air power to fill the horn.

I've successfully played swing-band 4th trombone parts on a large-bore (0.547") tenor with F-attachment instead of my 0.562" bore single-valve bass trombone - it depends on what instruments the other trombonists are playing. But I think playing those parts on a 0.525" bore tenor might be a stretch. For a community concert band, a 0.525" bore on the 3rd trombone part would probably be plenty.

Good luck!

It just got here. I tried a 48S and it goes down until the cup bottoms out, measured too, 0.547.
You seem to have quite a lot of knowledge, maybe you can help. I haven’t played over a decade and am no where near as physically active as I was back then. I know 62 isn’t that old, but maybe I am more out of shape than I thought. I still can peg the spirometer, but mine only has 3 balls, no measurements. I just got the Bach, I am thinking that I may have to learn a whole new embouchure like I did for the tenor because of my dentures. The horn only has a 6.5A L mouthpiece, but I am having a lot of trouble getting below the fV/3-1/4 position Eb. Any thoughts?

Just wondering, isn’t 0.547” and 0.563” only about 1/64” or 0.21 mm difference? Does that little difference make a big difference in sound?

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 4:52 pm Just wondering, isn’t 0.547” and 0.563” only about 1/64” or 0.21 mm difference? Does that little difference make a big difference in sound?

It's not just the bore of the slide that's different. A bass trombone is generally larger all around - valves, neckpipe, tuning slide crook, bell tail/throat.

But yes, a symphony bore tenor is much closer in size to a bass trombone than it is to something like a YSL-354.

I measured the inner diameter of the bell section at the slide nut connection to the slide, it is 0.563”, is that common for large bore tenors?

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 5:57 pm I measured the inner diameter of the bell section at the slide nut connection to the slide, it is 0.563”, is that common for large bore tenors?

I don't think anyone will know offhand. The slide tenon size in variable across makers and models. There are no standards.

What matters is the slide bore and the bore at all points along the bell section. Bass trombones are bigger everywhere, compared with a large tenor. Just as large tenors are bigger everywhere compared with small tenor.

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:13 pm The reason I ask is it looks like I may have been scammed on eBay for a YBL-612 from Japan. By the time I get my money back, if I get the money back, and find another similar one at less than $1000, it could be months. I am going to have to use the Bach Omega for now, which is being delivered today.

I think I know which eBay listing that was, and I have recently bought a horn from the same seller a little more than a week ago. It's not going how I'd expect so far, they're blaming it on FedEx which is BS. I'm not worried about getting my money back, I really want the horn I bought.

What was going on with your purchase which made you think you got scammed before it finally showed up?

He did not answer my inquiries and I am eBay paranoid from being burned in the past. It still hasn’t arrived, but he did get back to me saying it was shipped after I sent an email asking if I could cancel and get a refund.

.562 at the beginning of the bell section is normal for a large tenor

Why is this "news and announcements"?

Thanks, Harrison. Moved to Instruments.

'If I can play the parts with a big sound on a 0.547 large bore tenor with single f attachment, isn’t that good enough?'

An alto trombone doesn't sound like a tenor trombone which doesn't sound like a bass trombone which doesn't sound like a contrabass trombone. Those differences are like the colors on a sonic palette. It's the difference between making music and making somewhat enjoyable noise. Imagine The Eastman Trombone Choir with everyone playing an 88H. It would work ---- but how much better it would be if -------------.

For what it's worth, the .005" increase in diameter between .547 and .562 yields just over twice as much additional cross section as the .008" increase in diameter between .500 and .508.

For what it's worth, it's a .015" increase
maybe that's what you meant

I think it was mentioned above, but it’s not only about the bore size. There’s tapers, ratios, leadpipes, bell size and shape, not to mention the player.

Hi, Doug; yes, that's what I meant. Increases in diameter (and thus radius) bring about greater increases in the area of cross section when the starting bore is larger compared to when the starting bore is smaller.

What kind of rep will be played? If it's mostly older Big Band era stuff, there's no need for a second valve. There are plenty of single valve horns out there which will work just fine. I think the Brass Exchange has a nice TR183 George Roberts right now, and the Brass Ark has a really great looking 72H listed.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 3:20 pm

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:13 pm

As far as your other question, unless you are playing modern (20th century and beyond) orchestral literature 3rd trombone parts, or recent (beyond the swing era) big-band 4th trombone charts, you will not need a monster bass trombone with two valves. A single-valve bass (such as the Yamaha 321 or 421-G) will more than suffice. You just need the air power to fill the horn.

Agree wholeheartedly on the single-valve bass for the applications suggested. I find the bit “over responsive” 421 can be tamed quite a bit with a deeper (not necessarily larger, as in cup diameter) mouthpiece. It supports a relaxed playing style. “Intermediate” label is misleading, it’s a 6-series Yamaha with just a single valve, in my opinion. It’s a great horn.

James Markey recently noted that for the most part 95% of the notes on Bass are at E below the staff, upwards, in the Orchestral literature. (Note: He was not specififying jazz in this instance.) You definitely could get benefit with a second valve though for general flexibilty, quick rips and any scores requiring successive movement in and out of the pedal range. Low C and D are some of the more popular notes found in the Swing-Jazz literature on 4th.

Trhtrbn wrote: ↑Fri Jun 09, 2023 2:13 pm The reason I ask is it looks like I may have been scammed on eBay for a YBL-612 from Japan. By the time I get my money back, if I get the money back, and find another similar one at less than $1000, it could be months. I am going to have to use the Bach Omega for now, which is being delivered today.

You will get your money back. If the seller refuses, PayPal Buyer Protection is bulletproof. I got scammed out of a horn years ago, and PayPal were very quick to make things right.

3b with F works fine on big band stuffs until 60's?
Is not good for sure you play Stan Kenton stuffs on 3bf?George Roberts and Kenny Shroyer and Bill Smiley and many more played 70h,72h or so...play a bass trombone absolutely maybe a 42b bach size or holton duo bore like a 160 with a big mouthpiece as well will be a decent playing