TromboneChat

LOOOONG time lurker on the forum, first time poster. I wish it was a happier topic.

I wanted to share a cautionary tale about purchasing from group member Irvin Karan aka "Slidebone". Hopefully this serves as a warning for those looking at the cases and other items he’s been pushing on all the Facebook trombone groups.

Normally I wouldn’t post something like this. I buy and sell trombones online all the time, and I used to own an ecommerce business where I shipped dozens of packages each and every day. So I understand that dealing with shipping woes is part of doing business. But it’s the lack of accountability on his part and the lack of customer service that has pushed me over the edge. I'm happy to provide screenshots of our conversation for anyone interested.


Here’s what happened:

I purchased a Bags of Spain cut bell trombone case from Irvin Karan on May 1st. When I inquired as to the timeframe on May 6th he responded “Should be any day waiting on Fed Ex”.

No word for 3 weeks. I wasn’t too concerned because I realize these are coming from overseas.

On May 20th I inquired again and he said it should ship the next week. No word after that.

On May 29th I inquired again, and he said it had shipped to me the week prior using USPS. He never sent tracking info.

I requested a tracking number, and he sent me one at that time.

When I checked the tracking, it said the item was undeliverable, return to sender. I thought that was highly unusual. I have a commercial address here in Houston with several employees in the office every day from 7am-6pm. We see our postal worker on a regular basis. I've never had an issue receiving mail.

When I asked him what was going on, he told me it was probably due to the holiday and “you know USPS is not like the old days”.

So I waited a few more days. Over the next week I (and of my employees) made FOUR trips to our local post office but they couldn’t find the package.

It turns out that Irvin put *my* address for both the return *and* recipient address. I told him that was ridiculous... the whole point of a “return address” is for it to be "returned" to the SENDER if there’s a delivery issue. He replied that he does that all the time “for security”. I debated that point with him for a bit... but let it drop. I just wanted the expensive case that I purchased.

A few more days of back-and-forth took place with no resolution.

FINALLY today (June 12th, six weeks after ordering) I went back to the Post Office and they had the box. It had been sent to a “mail recovery center” in Atlanta so USPS could figure out the issue, and it had just returned to Houston over the weekend and they were holding it until they could figure out what to do with it.

The problem was that Mr Karan underpaid the postage. USPS rated the package at $87.30 but he only paid $22.80. They said the non-delivery was due to the incorrect postage. So I had to come out of pocket $64.50 to retrieve my package.

When I asked Mr Karan to reimburse me, he refused. He blamed it on a USPS error and told me I should look to them for resolution.

Just to double check things, I entered the box weight and dimensions into the USPS website… and the correct postage *IS* in fact $87.30 from his address in NYC to me in Houston. He paid the wrong amount.

I pointed out that he clearly sold me this case for $499 *including* shipping. And since he underpaid the shipping, he should reimburse me the difference. He has refused. He told me I could instead ship the case back to him for a full refund. I don’t want a full refund….I just want the $65 that I’m out because of his error.

I told him that if he didn’t provide just this *minimum* level of customer service that I would post the details on the trombone marketplace Facebook groups where he advertises. He said if I do that he was going to call the Texas Attorney General and law enforcement.

Good luck with that, Irvin. I'm simply stating the facts here.

From a fellow member, welcome to TC. Sorry it’s not under better circumstances.

Before TC, there was The Trombone Forum. There were a couple of stories like yours on TTF. (Lots of history, which I don’t remember. Someone else may fill in here…) After some time, the complaints grew so numerous and loud that Irv decided to not advertise or sell through TTF. IIRC, the threads relating to Irv were locked. I don’t know whether Irv is here on TC, or whether he lurks here…

Disclosure: I purchased a mouthpiece from Irv many years ago. It was delivered timely, no postage due. He included a mouthpiece pouch.

Unfortunately, I end up being in the middle of some of these dealings, because I know Irvin. I won't make excuses for him but I'll try to explain why it happened as it did.
He doesn't ship directly through USPS, he uses a service like Stamps.com (which can sometimes be significantly less than the "official" USPS rate) and sometimes underestimates the weight and puts it in the system without being checked by USPS. Often it goes right through without getting caught, but you see what happened in your case.
And as for the beginning of the transaction, I know that he will offer to sell cases that he knows are on the way but not necessarily delivered to him yet.
I will TRY to talk to him about it.

It took me months (4? 6? I don’t remember) to get a bass trombone case he assured me he had in NYC and would ship the next day. It finally arrived direct from China, not as pictured, with the engraved name plate “Mr. Deng” on the

Hey Doug, I appreciate the reply and willingness to help. I don't expect you to get involved...it's not your issue. Based on the feedback I've seen on Facebook he's been counseled about this for years and hasn't shown a willingness to change.

If he would just own up to the mistake and reimburse me for my out-of-pocket expense it would go a long way. But instead he argues and threatens me with a lawsuit. That's a really terrible way to do business. I know you're a business owner (as am I), and we know that sometimes you have to pay for your mistakes. In this case a mere $65 would have saved him a TON of bad publicity.

It's really a shame.

I remember the posts about him on the old forum; can't recall the details but what stood out to me was the consistant complaints over his willingness to blame the customer, and unwillingness to take responsibility as the seller to make good on his products. There was also quite a bit of nastiness and dishonesty on his part, if I remember correctly.
There are plenty of other vendors to buy from who treat their customers with respect, and deliver what they advertise in a timely manner. The Mighty Quinn and Tom Rice are two who come to mind.
I think we do each other a huge favor on the TC for giving praise, or criticism, where it is due.

FWIW... I have had great interactions with Irvin.

Did you buy it on this forum or Facebook?

If you bought it here:

1. TromboneChat is not eBay and does not guarantee transaction satisfaction. Don't get scammed; caveat emptor.

2. TromboneChat administrators and moderators are in no way endorsing any sellers, advertisers, or items.

Calling the guy out and posting here is the best you can do, but I don't think you can expect much in the way of customer service in these transactions unless you know who you are dealing with.

I had two transactions via his Slidebone website. No issues at all. Seems the folks buying cases have problems. Hate to see this as Irvin is a nice guy in person.

greenbean wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:26 am FWIW... I have had great interactions with Irvin.

I added your name to my response as a reputable seller, in my experience, Tom. Thanks for the reminder!

officermayo wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:10 am I had two transactions via his Slidebone website. No issues at all. Seems the folks buying cases have problems. Hate to see this as Irvin is a nice guy in person.

Irv Karan is a nice guy. Also a pretty good trombone player.

If Irv has what you want in stock, the transaction goes through like grease through a goose. No problems, fast delivery, etc.

Irv also does "drop ship" sales, where he takes your money and orders the product from the manufacturer shipped directly to you. This is most of the time things go awry. Irv has no more control over what the vendor does than you do; even though he does a lot more business with them.

Also, Irv seems to not care much about the transaction once the money has passed hands.

I won't comment on his business practice, but we hear a lot from people who have had problems.

I bought a Kanstul bass bone through him ~10 years ago. The wait time was 100% on Kanstul. Got a great price from him on the horn. Also got an Aida stand from him that you can't find anywhere else. He has also visited my home with Doug once. Saw him at ATW a few months ago. I have no complaints at all. If you go in with realistic expectations and don't blame him for supplier issues, you might have better luck.

Just to clarify: I don't have an issue with the wait time. I knew it was being ordered from overseas and I expected a few weeks transit (even though he told me a "few days").

My issue was (#1) lack of communication and even more so (#2) I paid $499 for a case "including shipping" and then had to run all over the place trying to retrieve the case from the post office only to find I then owed another $65 in shipping costs. And then he refused to reimburse me for that expense and threatened to sue me over my response.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:06 pm I bought a Kanstul bass bone through him ~10 years ago. The wait time was 100% on Kanstul. Got a great price from him on the horn. Also got an Aida stand from him that you can't find anywhere else. He has also visited my home with Doug once. Saw him at ATW a few months ago. I have no complaints at all. If you go in with realistic expectations and don't blame him for supplier issues, you might have better luck.

Yeah, the pitfalls of drop shipping are one thing, but "nice guys" don't have a decades-long history of threatening people with nonsensical litigation. I remember these stories from lurking the old forum as a kid... they're always basically the same, and they always end with him going Roy Cohn.

He's chosen an awfully small and close-knit world in which to behave badly.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Tue Jun 13, 2023 4:18 pmHe's chosen an awfully small and close-knit world in which to behave badly.

And yet he's still in business. I can only conclude that the vast majority of his sales are largely problem-free, and that texascurt's experience is atypical. Doesn't make it any less troubling, though.

He seems to give great service when things are under his control, the issue seems to be that where things go awry with something that is outside of his control, like a third party shipper, then he doesn’t want to take responsibility.

While it is understandable that he might think he is not responsible for something that goes wrong with a third party, that fact is, he took the customer’s money and the customer has a right to expect good service from the person who took their money no matter what: the minute you take someone’s money, you take responsibility for the transaction for better or worse, whether or not if a problem is your fault or a third party’s. Yes, it sucks for the vendor when things outside of their control go wrong, but that’s the way it goes, being a grown up in a retail business is accepting responsibility for dealing with things that go wrong, which is often. Sometimes you have to suck it up and take a loss in order to maintain your reputation.
That’s what they call “The price of doing business.”

I’m sure things go wrong with orders all the time for vendors like Dillon Music or Horn Guys; the difference is you never hear stories like this about them shirking their responsibility to the customer, even if the problem wasn’t their fault. There was one occasion where I know Steve Dillon took a loss with on a transaction he did with with me that went wrong with something beyond his control, but he understood that keeping a customer satisfied will make them a customer for life. In the long run, the amount of money I’ve spent at his business knowing he always has my back and recommendation that I have given to others to do business with him has far outweighed whatever small loss he took on that transaction. A good vendor knows their reputation is priceless and they’ll buck up and take the hit to keep a customer coming back and their reputation intact.

I'm pretty sure I've written about this before but I bought a Cronkhite bag from him in 2017 and didn't have very good service either. 4 months of delays and it took me telling him I would demand a refund and report him for him to come clean that he didn't have the case, he was waiting for Torpedo Bags to finish it. He then went on a tirade about how well known he is and got defensive about his musicianship... Don't really care, I just wanted a gig bag.

Drop shipping like that is common, just wished he was more direct about it and gave me a more realistic timeline out of the gate. But, I did pay less than what it would have to get it shipped from a major retailer, so you get what you pay for.

Irv's a great guy, but sorry to hear about any rare problems that occur with some shipping or whatever.

He'll give great advice about 'what's really good' in various equipment based on what other excellent trombonists have relayed to him as well.

On that note.... Irv sent me a YUPON Little Silencer practice mute after I'd asked him what have people been saying about various practice mutes over the last few years.

Definitely a great buy! Super light-weight, fits in the bell. No weird back pressures like some other little mutes.

Really great for an on-sight pre-gig warmup. Seems to be a winner for sure.

Irv says that Jim Pugh has been using it, and that Alan Kaplan told Irv about the Yupon brand of mutes a few years ago.

Good enough for them, good enough for me!

Anyways, Irv can get them for you. YUPON Little Silencer practice mute is a great find.

Bought a Bonna case and an Aida stand from him years ago with no issues. The Aida took much longer than expected, but eventually came.

I am very happy and pleased with the (limited) transactions and dealings I have had here on the TC. They have always been open, honest, gracious and transparent!

I have had many dealings with Irv over a very long time (about 20 years). He has never let me down (though sometimes I have had to wait) and he is a good guy. I count him as a friend. One can only speak as they find... Doug

I met Irvin at an ITF more than a decade ago. I do business with him about twice a year since our meeting and have had no problems. I will say that in the main, after 20+ years of internet trombone/accessory shopping, I get more picky every year.

I just looked up Slidebone on the 'net and found the store webpage and Facebook page are gone.

officermayo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 05, 2024 12:34 pm I just looked up Slidebone on the 'net and found the store webpage and Facebook page are gone.

Now “brass galaxy” as of 2/4/2024

Cheers,
Andy