TromboneChat

Pardon my ignorance but I have no idea whether any of my trombones have soldered or unsoldered rims. How can you tell? I guess if there's acid bleed that mean's it's soldered.

And what are the distinguishing characteristics of each? Are there definite reliable characteristics or does it depend on other things?

Why would somebody choose one or the other?

Other than current companies that offer options, are these brands typically soldered or unsoldered?

Williams
Kuhnl & Hoyer
Olds
Bach
Yamaha
King

You can see solder. Pic: viewtopic.php?p=177463#p177463

Sometimes less solder has been used or it's been scraped back further prior to buffing, but you can see the difference between an air gap and not... and/or stick paper/feeler gauges/tentacles into the gap. As you say, no acid bleed without an excuse for acid.

Also, they ring differently when tapped. Soldered can (bell weight and mounting tension depending) ring with a really clear, clean pitch - some Bachs do this really obviously. Unsoldered is somewhat clonkier, sometimes without an obvious center pitch if the bell is also quite light.

The close feedback is different, and the way that gets described depends on angle/area of interest. To me, soldered bells generally sound more 'finished', with proximal fizz/hiss taken off the top in a good way. Like the difference between 'clinical' and 'flattering mic'. Unsoldered red also seems fine, I think because the fizz you get get from unsoldered blends into the sizzle/grain of the red sound. Unsoldered yellow on small horns seems slightly raw/trashy in a way that I don't love. Think the worst aspects of the 6H sound. (Sorry, fans.) None of this makes much if any difference a few feet away.

Unsoldered widens the sound to the player (hence use of 2pc unsoldered yellow as a successor to 1pc soldered yellow in the Bach-inspired Edwards and Alessi/Shires worlds) and suggests articulation feedback up close. I think individual preference basically comes down to the aspects of tone and articulation about which the player is predisposed to get nervous.

'Depending on other things'? In 2pc world, there are company-wide representatives of both. I don't know of any unsoldered 1pc bells, though I'm sure there's something somewhere.

K&H - un
Bach and King - soldered
2pc Yamahas are unsoldered, 1pc soldered, as per Conn/Bach

The unsoldered bell gives you a lot more feedback from behind the bell. It's awesome.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 6:07 pm The unsoldered bell gives you a lot more feedback from behind the bell. It's awesome.

Hard disagree. I can never hear myself on an unsoldered bell. Maybe it’s just the years of Bach horns, but I cannot hear myself in an ensemble on an unsoldered horn. Recordings sound fine, but I never felt that I knew what was happening and was always worried about how loud I was actually playing.

As with most things equipment, I believe this has more to do with feedback to the player than sound in the hall.

Cheers,
Andy

I can see that. Totally fair. The bell is also just one component. My 396 was the second unsoldered horn I've used, and it's in the top two along with the other unsoldered horn I've used. The drawback is that it seems to take a lot more work in order to project sound with it.

I don't get it with Bachs -- 90% of the ones I've tried seem to have a sock stuck in the tuning crook. Hard to hear anything of yourself when no sound is coming out. The good 42s are a different story, of course.

I really liked the Greenhoe 62H model, felt great and sound was really nice. Thats one of the only unsoldered rim models that ive played that had great feedback and a nice sound, I wouldve loved to see how it felt in an ensemble.

Of the older makes - before Edwards-Shires-Greenhoe-M&W-Kanstul-Eastman-etc, I'm sort of assuming each company typically made their horns one way or another - correct me if I'm wrong about that - which ones were soldered and which were unsoldered?
Refer to my original list and add Conn, Holton, and any others you care to.

I have a feeling I've never had an unsoldered bell.
As much as I'm into mouthpieces and designs, I have always chosen horns simply by whether I like how they play, without considering leadpipes, material, soldered/unsoldered etc.

Pre 80s' Conns should have unsoldered bells.

Kings and Bachs have soldered bells.

Pretty sure Olds were soldered.

Don't know about Holtons.

I would give my 2 cents on the differences between the two but my soldered examples (36G and custom Conn/King bell) aren't standard horns.

Another way to check is if your can fit under the curl in the flare, some of these newer horns are doing a really job of hiding the solder or any solder leak.

I’ve only really played soldered bells and tried unsoldered so I can’t give a full comparison. It seems to open up the sound and if you have a naturally big and large sound the unsoldered amplifies that, at the moment I used a soldered because it to me makes the horn feel more stable, more timbral range before the metal tearing blasting.

I won't lie... I'm a huge equipment nerd and I've gone through MANY horns, but the whole bell bead thing has totally passed me by. I couldn't tell you what is what or how my thoughts were changed by that stat.

The common lore is that soldering a bell rim adds weight to the bell at a critical area. That extra weight (supposedly) "settles the be bell down a bit." ???
I own examples of both soldered and unsoldered bells. Some ring when tapped and some thud, irrespective of the rim type. Soldered horns can sound either bright or dark, and so can unsoldered horns. I'm not sure you can isolate the rim type from the enigma of variables that goes into designing a horn. It's a package deal

CharlieB wrote: ↑Sat Jun 17, 2023 9:04 pm I'm not sure you can isolate the rim type from the enigma of variables that goes into designing a horn. It's a package deal

It's true that certain linked choices seem significantly more popular, or correspond to archetype/expectation, and I think this particular variable isn't the highest on the list of things that matter, but that's not to say that the difference can't be described.

I mean, there are people who successfully design instruments for money... There are usually multiple ways of getting to a similar place, and the particular magic of certain combinations can be surprising, but it's not all a total mystery.

For the player, it's definitely unwise to choose or reject an instrument on this or any other 'paper spec' basis.

Doug, the bell you’re borrowing from me is unsoldered.

It did seem strange to me, but I attributed that to the frankenslide.

I have a similar one with a soldered bell bead, but 8"; you can try it when we sync up.

Of the list you had:

Conn - (Particularly the 8/88H) Unsoldered until sometime in the 80s or 90s, now they are soldered. These have always been two piece bells.
Bach - All Pro models are one-piece, soldered bell beads
King - All pro models I am aware of are soldered bell beads, and two-piece construction
Yamaha - A lot of the contemporary 8xx series are soldered bell beads and one-piece construction. The 3xx, 4xx, 5xx, and 6xx series that I have seen tend to be unsoldered bells; the 6xx series are one-piece construction. Some of the other series I've also played have been one-piece construction, but their specs aren't super clear for all models and they tend to do a good job of hiding the seam.


Probably the closest you'll be able to compare - aside from places like M&W and Shires, where you can have bells made with both soldered and unsoldered bell beads and one- and two-piece construction, is by comparing medium bores of the following make/model:

Bach 36 (One-piece, soldered)
Yamaha 456 (One piece to the best of my knowledge, unsoldered)
King 3B+ (Two piece, soldered)
King 607F (Two-Piece, unsoldered)

You can pretty cleanly compare just the unsoldered/soldered with Shires (e.g. series 1 bells vs 2 bells) or King with the 607F and 3B+ bell sections.

All else being equal - which is not easy to do - my experience is that soldered bead bells have more focused sound and articulation than unsoldered bead bells. They may also tend to have more consistent tone color across different dynamics. Unsoldered bead bells tend to sound more broad in the sustain, which for many translates as "darker." Many players likely find unsoldered bead bells to feel more flexible between partials and in tone color.

That said, so much depends on other design variables - one-piece v. two-piece construction, tapers of the bell and other parts, metal gauges, etc. - and of course individual players and what they are used to.

Thanks, that was the information I was looking for. Now I realize that I have typically not liked any of the horns with unsoldered bells, they just always feel strange to me. I'll have to look and see if my old Yamaha 354's are soldered or not.

I could be totally wrong, but I think Yamaha 354s are unsoldered. But I'm sure there are other design factors mitigating the effects of that - probably primarily the relatively thick metal typical of student instruments to make them durable, which provides focus in a way that can feel pretty similar.

One of the more popular Shires bass trombone bells in the early days (especially when the only taper was the BI) was the 2YHWT7 - unsoldered, heavy, with smaller than standard bead wire. That bell has a thick, dense sound and a pretty easy focus that comes with the thickness of the sheet metal the bell was spun from. In that case, the unsoldered, lighter bead wire helps it feel a bit more articulate and less thuddy than the 1YHW - the soldered, standard bead wire equivalent.

Now the BII (larger) taper is more popular, as are lighter gauge soldered bead bells. By far the most popular Shires bell these days is the BII 7YM. Soundwise you get a somewhat similar result, but with a different balance of elements.

354 has a pretty zingy, focused leadpipe too. At least mine did when I put it in my 356 and compared it to other 500 pipes.

Yes I see it now, the 354 is unsoldered.

I've never thought much about the bells of my t-bones, thanks for asking the question, providing answers, and causing me to contemplate my own horns. I started playing a King 607F in a swing orchestra because both the 1st and 2nd players were playing small bore horns. Thought it was overkill to play my Shires Q with them.

It ended up that all of my players had soldered bells. Only difference is the bell material. Both my Besson and Shires have gold brass (called Gilded by Besson). While I can get a ring out of all three (Besson, King, Shires Q) the pitch in my King is much higher--I presume that is because of the yellow brass.

My King also seems to have a much more articulate / clear sound than the other two. That was one of the things I was looking for to blend with the small bore players in the group. Our bass (4th) has a King 7B and has a sound all of his own compared to the rest of us.

Worth getting the horns together and thumping on their bells.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 8:19 am All else being equal - which is not easy to do - my experience is that soldered bead bells have more focused sound and articulation than unsoldered bead bells. They may also tend to have more consistent tone color across different dynamics. Unsoldered bead bells tend to sound more broad in the sustain, which for many translates as "darker." Many players likely find unsoldered bead bells to feel more flexible between partials and in tone color.

This^^^^^^^^

I've felt the same way.

Slightly off-topic:

In the past, I used a hard “T” when starting notes (along with other unhelpful habits). I owned a King 4B at the time. The soldered rim tended to emphasize the front of the note, which led to explosive starts that I believe were emphasized by equipment.

I then purchased an older Conn 8H, and discovered that a hard “T” to start the note was even worse.I believe the explosion was made worse partly due to the unsoldered bead. For me, the unsoldered bead was almost diagnostic: it emphasized the problem so that I could hear what was happening. (My teacher at the time wasn’t interested in embouchure and mechanics, and just told me to “use more air.” )

From that, I learned to use more air at the beginning of each note with a softer tongue (a “d” or even an “n) consonant at the beginning of the note). I still have the occasional problem with hard, explosive starts if I’m out of shape or if I’m not paying attention.

My theory from this experience (and my limited teaching experience) is that some people play better with soldered beads, while others are better with unsoldered beads. Of course, some people learned to play on one kind of horn, and soldered vs. unsoldered bells isn’t part of the equation. These days, when you can get a two-piece soldered bell or a one-piece unsoldered bell (the opposite of the old Conns and Bachs respectively), you can much more easily tailor your equipment to your playing.

Soldered for me.
I have a big throat and mouth cavity. The unsoldered bell has a more spread sound that goes bad for me.
Years ago when I was with Christian at Edwards, he put an unsoldered bell on to see how it played for me. First he looked left and right as the sound had no middle. Then grabbed the horn away from me and said "No".
Yup. Soldered for me.

Appreciate this discussion - looks like I gravitate to the unsoldered bells most of the time but there is more to it than that. Hmm...

Then add to the discussion... One or 2 piece bells

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sun Jun 18, 2023 4:59 pm Slightly off-topic:

In the past, I used a hard “T” when starting notes (along with other unhelpful habits). I owned a King 4B at the time. The soldered rim tended to emphasize the front of the note, which led to explosive starts that I believe were emphasized by equipment.

I then purchased an older Conn 8H, and discovered that a hard “T” to start the note was even worse.I believe the explosion was made worse partly due to the unsoldered bead. For me, the unsoldered bead was almost diagnostic: it emphasized the problem so that I could hear what was happening. (My teacher at the time wasn’t interested in embouchure and mechanics, and just told me to “use more air.” )

From that, I learned to use more air at the beginning of each note with a softer tongue (a “d” or even an “n) consonant at the beginning of the note). I still have the occasional problem with hard, explosive starts if I’m out of shape or if I’m not paying attention.

My theory from this experience (and my limited teaching experience) is that some people play better with soldered beads, while others are better with unsoldered beads. Of course, some people learned to play on one kind of horn, and soldered vs. unsoldered bells isn’t part of the equation. These days, when you can get a two-piece soldered bell or a one-piece unsoldered bell (the opposite of the old Conns and Bachs respectively), you can much more easily tailor your equipment to your playing.

So, I generally agree with this… but I also wonder how much is nature vs nurture. For me, I’m nearly positive it is all nurture. Just don’t understand the feedback I’m getting and have to concentrate really hard on what I’m doing with an unsoldered rim. Recordings and listening ears that are very good (same ears from Christan at Edwards) agree that I can play and sound just fine on an unsoldered bead. The technology and tool works just fine. I’m just confused and feel unsettled because I don’t understand the feedback I’m getting from behind the bell when playing with others.

I’m now starting to consider how a carbon fiber flare fits into this matrix… and I don’t quite understand yet, and I haven’t played it in public yet either.

Cheers,
Andy

I wonder if the soldered wire in a bell bead kind of acts as a tiny "kranz" and helps stabilize the bell. Invisible and much better...anyone ever tried to repair a bent bell with a krantz? That must be the worst!

Trav1s wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 5:16 am Appreciate this discussion - looks like I gravitate to the unsoldered bells most of the time but there is more to it than that. Hmm...

Woth the array of Conns you have I'd say so.

dukesboneman wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 6:31 am Then add to the discussion... One or 2 piece bells

Almost all of my trombones are one piece bells with soldered rims. The only exceptions to this are my YBL-612 Bass and King 3b. The 612 has an unsoldered bead, and part of my brain thinks it may have a 2 piece bell, but any brass joints are welded, as there are no brazing seams anywhere on the bell. The 3B has a two piece bell with clear brazing seams, and a soldered bead.

Of these, the 612 is definitely the horn that requires the most "adjustment" after not playing it for a while. The 830 bass I have takes very little re-adjustment to sound good if I have been playing just tenor for a while. The 612 requires more time. It also has a 10 inch bell that I believe is relatively heavy gauge (could be wrong on that).

Here's another question:
Does cutting a bell for a screw ring have a different effect on soldered vs. unsoldered bells? I imagine it would make an unsoldered bell play as if it was soldered... Does it? Does a ring add "too much" to a soldered bell? Are the horns sold as screw bells typically soldered or unsoldered?

In my experience, the 2 construction types retain, for the most part, their respective sound qualities.

A 2 piece bell becomes a little more focused, and can tolerate slightly higher dynamics than un-cut.

1 piece bells do similar to the above, but seem to become "stiff" in response. 2 piece bells don't exhibit that trait.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 6:47 am Here's another question:
Does cutting a bell for a screw ring have a different effect on soldered vs. unsoldered bells? I imagine it would make an unsoldered bell play as if it was soldered... Does it? Does a ring add "too much" to a soldered bell? Are the horns sold as screw bells typically soldered or unsoldered?

I'm not sure if it's quite the same but I've experimented with building up / dampening the area where the two bell pieces meet with leather/tape/rubber and it has a very strong stabilizing effect and adds "good" resistance up front. It feels like you're getting more out for what you put in.

That point on the bell and the area around the bell brace seem to be "weak" areas in the design. Dampening them or adding weight in those spots seems to make it so that you get more output.

I should probably shut up as I am not good enough to really know…. BUT, my 2 piece, unsoldered, Holton flare is a screw bell. There are too many variables to really know, but I can get along with this bell. Other unsoldered ones… I feel like I’m working too hard to figure out how I fit in. This one… works, but sometimes it can get away from me a bit… it is aggressive, and rewards those inputs accordingly. Previous holtons I have tried, regular 180s and 181s… just don’t work well for me, but I don’t work well with red brass or unsoldered rims. This one is OK, I guess… it works well enough for me to enjoy the functionality of the screw bell when I need it.

If I get that carbon fiber flare cut… I’ll have no need for this one.

Cheers,
Andy

Both my 1920 and my 1924 Conns have a soldered rim..A 1919 model Bass and a «Fuchs»model bass i borroved also had soldered rim..When did Conn change to unsoldered ?

Tbarh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 5:42 pm Both my 1920 and my 1924 Conns have a soldered rim..A 1919 model Bass and a «Fuchs»model bass i borroved also had soldered rim..When did Conn change to unsoldered ?

I'm not an expert but I think it happened over the course of the 1950s, so that by the late 50s all Conn trombones had unsoldered beads.

I don't think you see unsoldered beads before WWII. My 1940 70H also has a soldered bead. I think all 72Hs - which replaced the 70H in the mid-late 50s - have unsoldered beads.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu Jun 22, 2023 10:03 am

Tbarh wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 5:42 pm Both my 1920 and my 1924 Conns have a soldered rim..A 1919 model Bass and a «Fuchs»model bass i borroved also had soldered rim..When did Conn change to unsoldered ?

I'm not an expert but I think it happened over the course of the 1950s, so that by the late 50s all Conn trombones had unsoldered beads.

I don't think you see unsoldered beads before WWII. My 1940 70H also has a soldered bead. I think all 72Hs - which replaced the 70H in the mid-late 50s - have unsoldered beads.

Interesting, do we know if any 70Hs were unsoldered? I assumed they changed with other horns around that post WW2 period, but I haven’t handled enough of them to know,

Cheers,
Andy

I recently had a 1920's Fuchs 70H in the shop, and currently have a 50's (small bell) 70H. Both soldered. Both with seamed flares.

I don't know if this is fact or urban legend, but I had been told that Conn started going unsoldered and using more red brass in their horns around the same time that Remington became involved in the 88H design.

BassBoneFL wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:06 am I don't know if this is fact or urban legend, but I had been told that Conn started going unsoldered and using more red brass in their horns around the same time that Remington became involved in the 88H design.

That timing makes sense.

Man I can’t stand unsoldered… it’s my least favorite part of this Alessi horn (along with the Rotax!). I know from ensemble recordings that it isn’t true, but it feels like the sound goes sideways rather than straight out the bell. It was the same on the Getzen 1052 I had, and just about every other unsoldered horn I can recall.

Thrawn22 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 7:49 pm

Trav1s wrote: ↑Mon Jun 19, 2023 5:16 am Appreciate this discussion - looks like I gravitate to the unsoldered bells most of the time but there is more to it than that. Hmm...

Woth the array of Conns you have I'd say so.

Woth noting - I just checked specs on the Getzen 4147IB and it also has an unsoldered bell. There's something about what I hear on the back side of the bell with unsoldered bead but cannot name the difference.