Tongue placement

[brassmedic]

The other thread about tonguing got me to thinking it would be interesting to informally poll everyone about where you place your tongue at the start of a note. Maybe we could start with what you do when you play a Bb whole note, top of bass clef staff, mezzo forte, no accent. When you start the note, does the tip of your tongue touch behind your top teeth, on the roof of your mouth 1/8 inch behind your top teeth, at the bottom of your top teeth, between your lips, etc.? And if you want to mention other factors such as tongue shape, contact is not right at the tip, etc. that would also be good. Then if you have different contact points for different registers, maybe also give examples for lower or higher notes. Thanks in advance.

[musicofnote]

Bass trombone here. Depends upon the note, the dynamic, the given or desired articulation. If you're interested about what's going on inside the mouth of various brass players:

[brassmedic]

Yes, I have seen those. It's a bit difficult to discern what's going on because the MRI images lack detail, but it looks to me like all 3 of those players place their tongue (the tip at least) between the lips for every articulation. That actually raises an interesting question: Does the tongue need to be in physical contact with the lips in order to get a clean articulation? The conventional way of describing articulation, with syllables such as ta, da, tu, du, etc. would suggest that it doesn't, but looking at these MRIs suggests otherwise. That's why I was hoping to get some examples from the members here. Perhaps people are reticent.

[tbdana]

I try to keep my tongue in my mouth, and count that as a success.

[Doug Elliott]

The only way a note will start cleanly is if the aperture starts in a closed position. People who have their mouth so far open that the lips aren't touching have to use the tongue to close the aperture. It's not an efficient way to play, but that's why it happens.

[imsevimse]

The other thread about tonguing got me to thinking it would be interesting to informally poll everyone about where you place your tongue at the start of a note. Maybe we could start with what you do when you play a Bb whole note, top of bass clef staff, mezzo forte, no accent. When you start the note, does the tip of your tongue touch behind your top teeth, on the roof of your mouth 1/8 inch behind your top teeth, at the bottom of your top teeth, between your lips, etc.? And if you want to mention other factors such as tongue shape, contact is not right at the tip, etc. that would also be good. Then if you have different contact points for different registers, maybe also give examples for lower or higher notes. Thanks in advance.

If I start a long tone Bb over staff in a mezzoforte with no accent, just a plain warm mezzoforte with my best sound then I do that with my "Da" articulation which means it is dorsal tounged in position as in "nee" with a "broad tip" that is slightly curved behind bottom teeth. The tip stays behind bottom teeth as air passes over tounge. Middle of tounge is still very close to roof, it's NOT flattned to make room in mouth but still rather high, so not much empty space in mouth either.
[I wonder how that turned out, if this can be understood. You have to excuse my english. Not easy described in Swedish that is my native language, so I guess this might be a bit funny to read ]

/Tom

[brassmedic]

The other thread about tonguing got me to thinking it would be interesting to informally poll everyone about where you place your tongue at the start of a note. Maybe we could start with what you do when you play a Bb whole note, top of bass clef staff, mezzo forte, no accent. When you start the note, does the tip of your tongue touch behind your top teeth, on the roof of your mouth 1/8 inch behind your top teeth, at the bottom of your top teeth, between your lips, etc.? And if you want to mention other factors such as tongue shape, contact is not right at the tip, etc. that would also be good. Then if you have different contact points for different registers, maybe also give examples for lower or higher notes. Thanks in advance.

If I start a long tone Bb over staff in a mezzoforte with no accent, just a plain warm mezzoforte with my best sound then I do that with my "Da" articulation which means it is dorsal tounged in position as in "nee" with a "broad tip" that is slightly curved behind bottom teeth. The tip stays behind bottom teeth as air passes over tounge. Middle of tounge is still very close to roof, it's NOT flattned to make room in mouth but still rather high, so not much empty space in mouth either.
[I wonder how that turned out, if this can be understood. You have to excuse my english. Not easy described in Swedish that is my native language, so I guess this might be a bit funny to read ]

/Tom

No, you described it perfectly. Thanks!

[imsevimse]

Brad, I think this was a good idea of a thread, but goes under radar, not many chime in. I have given a second thought of the list I did in the other thread "Tounging issues" viewtopic.php?p=212187#p212187 with all the articulations I use. I updated my post there with tounge placement and I also now post the same in your thread.

I hope this triggers comments from some players because I need Ideas for my practice sessions.

I think I have at least 16 different tounge-attacks or sets of tounge articulations that I think of as different techniques and that I use. I guess I also vary them slightly according to what I have to do different in different registers, but this is how I think of them.

Single tounging

1. Ta Ta Ta (tounge position as in "nee nee" with broad tip behind upper teeth)
2. Da Da Da (tounge position as in "nee nee" with broad tip slightly curved behind bottom teeth)
3. La La La (legato, gentle touch with pointed tip behind upper teeth. The airstream is never interrupted. Passes during "l" on both sides of tounge and during '"a" over the tounge)
4. Da Ra Da Ra or Ta Ra Ta Ra (tounge moves as in "doughter", gives faster single tounge. Both "Da" and "Ta" as described earlier. The "Ra" with broad tip in roof
I had troubles to repeat "ta-ta-ta" or "da-da-da" when it is fast. It is easier for me to alternate like "da-ra-da-ra-da-ra". For me it's the same movement as in "doughter". To practice this also solved my "doo-dle" because I can slid in to that tounging easy from "da-ra".)

Multiple tounging

5. Ta-ka ta-ka (double - "Ta" as described earlier, the "ka" is dorsal with the back of the tounge)
6. Da-ga da-ga (double. "Da" as described earlier, the "ga" is dorsal with the back of the tounge but not as far back as the "ka" in "Ta-ka")
7. Da-dl Da-dl (double doodle - "Da" as described earlier and "dl" with tip of tounge behind upper teeth. Air passes first over the tounge and then during the "dl" it passes under on both sides of the tip of the tounge)
8. Ta-ta-ka Ta-ta-ka (tripple - "Ta" and " ka" as described earlier)
9. Da-da-ga Da-da-ga (tripple "Da" and " ga" as described earlier)
10 and 11. Ta-ka-ta Ka-ta-ka or Da-ga-da Ga-da-ga (double used as tripple - "Ta", "ka" and "Da","ga" as described earlier)
12. Ta-ka-ta Ta-ka-ta (tripple - "Ta" and "ka" as described earlier)
13. Da-ga-da Da-ga-da (tripple -"Da" and "ga" as described earlier)
14. Da-dl-a Da-dl-a (tripple doodle - "Da-dl" as described earlier and "la" same as in 3)

Side to side tounging ("snake tounge")

15. Loo-loo-loo-loo ("L" here isn't really a syllable in speach. Fully described here: viewtopic.php?t=32085)

Other
One more articulation that I want mention, since I've listed everything else I ever known and use. This is my "no tounge articuation" and "curled tip of tounge up in roof articulation" It's done just with a slight change in the air stream, It's like a small dip in the stream between notes. I use it for my smoothest legato. The result is as close to a glissando as it gets, that's what I want, but not a glissando. Sometimes I help with a very gentle tuch of a curled tip of the tounge up in roof of the mouth, a strike so soft it can not be heard,. It helps for exemple in leaps, both smaller and larger leaps and I also use it sometimes when legato is a natural slur just for safety The smoothest is a mix of those two

16. hoOO-hoOO-hoOO-lhoOO-hoO (It is a very small dip in the airflow with or without help of glottis, thus the "ho". The "lho" is used occationally where help is needed. This combo of articulation for legato is something I've just started to discover and work at. I would love to be able to play as smooth as a string player does with his bow. I'm experimenting with this and see if I will get closer to that eventually).

A couple of things with legato I've noticed
1. With legato and leaps (where a natural slur is possible) is it helps if I aim "dark" if I come to a note from below and "bright" if I come to it from above. I'm not then thinking pitch though adjusting the slide position accordinly that way does help. I must still be in pich. I guess adjustments happen in my mouth/lips to still remain in pitch. For example think of a legato leap between and and a legato leap from to . In the first the B can be thought of as dark in sound and therefore the slide could be adjusted a couple out and in the opposite; the descending F from B can be thought of as bright and the F can then be adjusted with a couple of mm in. This is to smoothen the sound, notes must still be in pitch. I've noticed it helps for me to think like this.
2. When there is not a leap, and legato is not against the grain as is the case from F in first position to D . then I have noticed a quick move with the slide will suck some air. That airloss can be compensated with a little more air between notes when the slide moves. If the opposite from to then the slide will push some air which means a ittle less air is needed between those notes.

/Tom

[GabrielRice]

The only way a note will start cleanly is if the aperture starts in a closed position. People who have their mouth so far open that the lips aren't touching have to use the tongue to close the aperture. It's not an efficient way to play, but that's why it happens.

Honestly, I don't know about that, Doug. Maybe it's because I play everything with a big bass trombone rim, but I gave up on trying to always start with the aperture closed several years ago. I found I was getting delayed articulations, even with breath attacks. I'm much better off simply starting with my aperture in the shape it's going to end up in. And the point of contact for my tongue basically travels up and down my upper front teeth.

[imsevimse]

The only way a note will start cleanly is if the aperture starts in a closed position. People who have their mouth so far open that the lips aren't touching have to use the tongue to close the aperture. It's not an efficient way to play, but that's why it happens.

Honestly, I don't know about that, Doug. Maybe it's because I play everything with a big bass trombone rim, but I gave up on trying to always start with the aperture closed several years ago. I found I was getting delayed articulations, even with breath attacks. I'm much better off simply starting with my aperture in the shape it's going to end up in. And the point of contact for my tongue basically travels up and down my upper front teeth.

Acctually I do the same. My lips are not closed when I start a note either and I'm not tounging between my lips except sometimes in low register. Both works but for different players.

/Tom

[brassmedic]

4. Da Ra Da Ra or Ta Ra Ta Ra (tounge moves as in "doughter", gives faster single tounge. Both "Da" and "Ta" as described earlier. The "Ra" with broad tip in roof

That one goes all the way back to the Renaissance. It was written as "tere tere", I think.

[timothy42b]

Oh, the drums go bang and the cymbals clang and the horns they blaze away
McCarthy pumps the old bassoon while I the pipes do play
And Henessee Tennessee tootles the flute and the music is something grand
A credit to old Ireland is MacNamara's band

[imsevimse]

4. Da Ra Da Ra or Ta Ra Ta Ra (tounge moves as in "doughter", gives faster single tounge. Both "Da" and "Ta" as described earlier. The "Ra" with broad tip in roof

That one goes all the way back to the Renaissance. It was written as "tere tere", I think.

Okay, thank's. I did not invent that one either
You might think "A lot of different articulations to occupy the mind, and are you then gonna have to decide first what tounge movement to use?" My thought is it's just the way to practice them. In real life I hope the choice of articulation will be unconscious. If I want a specific result I hope I will use the tounge accordingly. While practice in studio I have to isolate things and be strict until I know it by heart.

Still very few who post in this thread, also interesting. What are your thoughts? There are many good players here.

/Tom.

[LeTromboniste]

4. Da Ra Da Ra or Ta Ra Ta Ra (tounge moves as in "doughter", gives faster single tounge. Both "Da" and "Ta" as described earlier. The "Ra" with broad tip in roof

That one goes all the way back to the Renaissance. It was written as "tere tere", I think.

Yup, both that one ("tere tere", or in the first source where we find it "diri diri de") and doodle ("derelere" ) we find recommended as the default articulations for fast notes as early as the first methods for wind instruments, in the 16th century. And there, what we think as "double tonguing" ("teche teche") is said to be too harsh and crude and to be used only for effect, when wanting to instill terror!
The same, this time written as "tu du tu du" is still recommended as "double tonguing" and called the main or default articulation in an Italian trombone method of the early 1830's.

[trombonedemon]

The only way a note will start cleanly is if the aperture starts in a closed position. People who have their mouth so far open that the lips aren't touching have to use the tongue to close the aperture. It's not an efficient way to play, but that's why it happens.

Honestly, I don't know about that, Doug. Maybe it's because I play everything with a big bass trombone rim, but I gave up on trying to always start with the aperture closed several years ago. I found I was getting delayed articulations, even with breath attacks. I'm much better off simply starting with my aperture in the shape it's going to end up in. And the point of contact for my tongue basically travels up and down my upper front teeth.

This is why I always thought free buzzing was useless