TromboneChat

I'm joining my local British Brass Band this fall and playing Baritone horn. Just curious if anyone else here plays baritone (or anything else) in a brass band?

I have played all parts in a brass band, from conductor down to timpani!
The baritone parts can be fantastic. You get to play with all sections in the band!
I find the actual baritone hard to play nicely, at higher dynamics I tend to sound like a trombone!
I prefer baritone parts to be played on a baritone, not a euphonium. The baritones are an important part in the overall blend of the band, along with the tenor horns.

I have played several different instruments in brass bands as well, including the baritone. Pezza makes some very keen observations that I agree with.

The baritone parts can definitely be dazzling and fun to play and the voice has a unique place in the brass band. The characteristic tone should be bright and light. Thus, a .500 bore baritone is really the best instrument for the job. I have observed musicians using .562 bore King baritones in a brass band. For my ear, it didn’t work well because the tone was was not easily differentiated from the euphoniums. Again, the .500 bore “English” baritone is definitely the way to go.

There are three performance challenges that I always must think about when I play baritone in a brass band:

1. Just like Pezza mentioned, the sound can get edgy very quickly when playing loud passages. I do my best to back off at least one dynamic level on baritone…..forte should be played as mezzo-forte, etc…..

2. Each baritone has some very unique intonation issues. There are several different layouts for baritones: 3-valve non-compensating, 3-valve compensating, 3+1 non-compensating, 3+1 compensating, etc….. None of them are anywhere close to having “superb intonation.” Spend some quality time time with a tuner and figure out the problems on your particular horn.

3. Most baritones play in a way that different valve combinations have noticeably different compressions. I have found this true from the basic student models all the way up to the top Besson Prestige 2056 3+1 compensating model that presently costs about $9,500 US. I played one of those for a few months and found that I had to blow slightly harder on every note that included 2nd valve in order to make it sound even. The “uneven compression“ problem seems to vary from instrument to instrument. This uneven compression is just thing that the player should take time to figure out.

I’ve played it quite often in British brass bands. It was never a main instrument for me but I’ve often been asked to fill in, up to the highest levels of competition in the UK.

I agree generally with what’s been said already with a few added thoughts.

- You need especially good awareness of which other sections you’re playing with and to adjust sound and intonation accordingly.

- Although the first baritone parts often have some interesting technical and musical challenges, the second baritone parts are often filling in the off-beats and/or doubling other parts. Important? yes. Interesting? depends on your perspective.

- As a euph player, it’s a joy to play in a euph/bari section with a real specialist baritone player.

- I also never played a baritone with truly excellent intonation but compared to an oval bohemian tenorhorn/baritone it isn’t that bad.

There are some quite good Chinese baritone horns for pretty cheap.

About 5 years ago, I was booked to play the trombone part in a local production of "Barnum". When the parts arrived I found that there was a short number where I had to double on baritone for a marching band scene along with the tuba player who doubled on Sousaphone and the 2nd trumpet who doubled on cornet for the sake of authenticity. There was also a stage hand who doubled on bass drum! We all had to wear a military-style tunic and cap. For the five minute episode I borrowed a B&H/Besson 3 valve compensated baritone from a local band. That model or the later 4 valved version is best-I was playing in D major with low B naturals so the compensating system helped a lot with tuning. They are fine instruments even when you are making a fool of yourself on stage!

Just one small correction to Brian's post above; The "Imperial" or "New Standard" model I played had a bore of 0.516in, whereas the modern baritones are either 0.525in or 0.543in bore.

Cheers

Stewbones43

Playing the first baritone part in a British brass band is quite fun, and yes, better use a British baritone with the smaller bore. Usually takes small shank mouthpieces.

An American bariton is quite another thing, as is a German baryton. Even the German or Swiss upright baryton is larger in bore, and has too broad a sound for brass band. More like a euph, but not entirely as mellow as an euph.

I played almost all low brass over the years in brass band, baritone, euph, trombones, Eb and Bb tuba, but my favorites are bass bone and Eb tuba.

Have fun, its a nice orchester form. ..

Playing first baritone part is interesting, second baritone far less so. First bari gets lots of action with euph, ‘bones and cornet. Not many solo opportunities. I started out on second baritone back in the day.

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 11:09 am Just one small correction to Brian's post above; The "Imperial" or "New Standard" model I played had a bore of 0.516in, whereas the modern baritones are either 0.525in or 0.543in bore.

Cheers

Stewbones43

Yes, you are correct Stewbones! I just had .500 bore on the brain because I had a bunch of the Yamaha YBH-301 models in my shop about a month ago. Those are .500 bore. Sorry about that!

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 11:09 am About 5 years ago, I was booked to play the trombone part in a local production of "Barnum". When the parts arrived I found that there was a short number where I had to double on baritone for a marching band scene along with the tuba player who doubled on Sousaphone and the 2nd trumpet who doubled on cornet for the sake of authenticity. There was also a stage hand who doubled on bass drum! We all had to wear a military-style tunic and cap. For the five minute episode I borrowed a B&H/Besson 3 valve compensated baritone from a local band. That model or the later 4 valved version is best-I was playing in D major with low B naturals so the compensating system helped a lot with tuning. They are fine instruments even when you are making a fool of yourself on stage!

Hmm... "baritone" in an american context means euphonium, and was probably intended to be played on an "american-style baritone" such as a king or conn. Your boosey/besson baritone was not the instrument the arranger intended.

I don't like the 4-valve baritones, I had a Prestige and a York Preference and both had much worse intonation problems than most every 3-valve baritone I had tried, and the extra weight and bracing of the fourth valve just kills projection. It's handy for borrowing solo literature from euphonium and bassoon, but it's not a compromise worth making.

I already have an instrument. It's the British style one from Eastman (EBH311) in silver plate. I'm really looking forward to it. Using a Denisk Wick 6BS on it. It's giving me a clean sound that is a little more full-bodied than trombone but lighter than a euphonium. I really like my instrument, despite it not being a compensating instrument.

Those aren't too bad, the bell is small, but the sound is ok and they respond really nicely. Just watch your 1+3 notes for not being too sharp. Some people like to set the 3rd valve slide so 2+3 notes are a little flat and then 1+3 notes are only slightly sharp.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:04 pm Hmm... "baritone" in an american context means euphonium, and was probably intended to be played on an "american-style baritone" such as a king or conn. Your boosey/besson baritone was not the instrument the arranger intended.

My reason for choosing the British-style baritone was influenced by 2 things; firstly, I didn't know that the Tuba player was going to play a Sousaphone and I thought the Baritone would give a more contrasting sound than a Euphonium against the Tuba I was expecting him to play. Secondly, I have a fairly large collection of brass instrument catalogues and in a Conn catalogue from 1988 there is, on the front cover, a drawing of a circus band from the late 1800s. The player's instrument I took to be more a Baritone rather than a Euphonium from the bell size and profile. Here in the UK, both Euphoniums and Baritones are readily available, so I could have chosen either.

In the context of the performance, I don't think many,(if any) of the audience would know the difference but here on the TC it is good to hear different views on the minutiae of assorted, random bits of metal tubing we love and cherish.

Cheers

Stewbones43

stewbones43 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 9:21 amSecondly, I have a fairly large collection of brass instrument catalogues and in a Conn catalogue from 1988 there is, on the front cover, a drawing of a circus band from the late 1800s. The player's instrument I took to be more a Baritone rather than a Euphonium from the bell size and profile.

Possibly a tenor horn. If you look at American band music from that period, you'll often find parts for 1st and 2nd Bb tenor and Bb bass, doubling 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone.

The American Bb tenor horn (our equivalent to the British baritone) went extinct in the early 20th century; brass bands faded away and trombones replaced them in concert bands.

Of course, given the bore inflation that's happened over the last century, some models of British baritone are approaching the size of the traditional "American baritone" (typically .562" bore).

bbocaner wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 7:28 am Those aren't too bad, the bell is small, but the sound is ok and they respond really nicely. Just watch your 1+3 notes for not being too sharp. Some people like to set the 3rd valve slide so 2+3 notes are a little flat and then 1+3 notes are only slightly sharp.

I keep the 3rd valve slide out a bit to do just that!

Mouthpiece question, out of curiosity: Do British baritones play better with a bowl-shaped or a funnel-shaped cup to the mouthpiece?

THE classic baritone mouthpiece is a Wick 6BS which is a very funnel-shaped mouthpiece, even though it's fairly shallow. In theory, conical instruments match up with funnel-shaped mouthpieces and cylindrical like cup-shaped, however the theory often breaks down in the real world. Contrary to popular thought, the baritone IS a conical instrument, just not as conical as a euphonium is. Some of the SM-series and Alliance mouthpieces are much deeper and even more funnel-shaped, but the darkness in the sound of the baritone and tenorhorn comes from your airflow, not from a deep mouthpiece, and I believe these are more ideal for euphonium players who are trying to get a characteristic baritone sound without necessarily playing it like a baritone.

JohnL wrote: ↑Tue Aug 01, 2023 10:02 am
Possibly a tenor horn. If you look at American band music from that period, you'll often find parts for 1st and 2nd Bb tenor and Bb bass, doubling 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone.

The American Bb tenor horn (our equivalent to the British baritone) went extinct in the early 20th century; brass bands faded away and trombones replaced them in concert bands.

Of course, given the bore inflation that's happened over the last century, some models of British baritone are approaching the size of the traditional "American baritone" (typically .562" bore).

Right, my research is that Sousa and his preference for trombones in his band probably had a lot to do with the Bb tenorhorn (aka UK baritone) dying out in the US.

Well, if you're trying to be historical to the mid-19th century period Barnum is supposed to be taking place, Sousaphone is wrong, too. But the musical was written in 1980, and in that period the word "baritone" being written on a piece of music being published in the US absolutely meant euphonium, and probably was played on either a besson euphonium or a classic american "baritone" (aka american-style euphonium) a-la King/Conn/Olds etc.

Regarding bore inflation, I don't think it matters too much with regards to the sound you get out of it in the end. Some of the 4-valve instruments are in the .540 range and they don't play all that differently from the classic sovereign at .516.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:16 amWell, if you're trying to be historical to the mid-19th century period Barnum is supposed to be taking place, Sousaphone is wrong, too. But the musical was written in 1980, and in that period the word "baritone" being written on a piece of music being published in the US absolutely meant euphonium, and probably was played on either a besson euphonium or a classic american "baritone" (aka american-style euphonium) a-la King/Conn/Olds etc.

That entire scene (Come Follow The Band) is kind of a lost cause from a historical accuracy standpoint. If the audience gets a general "old timey" feel from the instruments chosen, I'd say you're good. It's far more likely that someone will think: "Hold on, that sounds like ragtime, and ragtime didn't come along until the 1890's!" than "Wait a minute! They didn't have sousaphones in the 1850's. They barely had piston valve cornets."

bbocaner wrote: ↑Thu Aug 03, 2023 9:08 am THE classic baritone mouthpiece is a Wick 6BS which is a very funnel-shaped mouthpiece, even though it's fairly shallow.

I‘d agree with the Wick 6BS being the classic, it‘s what I mainly played on baritone.

Last time I helped out on baritone didn‘t have an instrument or 6BS to prepare on, I just picked up the horn when I turned up for the gig. I decided to take a couple of familiar mouthpieces to remove one variable and actually they both worked surprisingly well. One was an Bach MV 9, which I normally use for oval tenorhorn. It played very easy with no (unexpected) tuning quirks and a compact but still unmistakably baritone sound. The other was a Bach MV 6.5a. That was a bit too much towards a trombone sound, usable, but the 9 was better.

Dennis Wick 6BS is the classic baritone mouthpiece. Now the Mead SM6, SM6U & SM6UX models are popular, along with Alliance.

Now I normally use my plastic Wedge 5G when I play baritone! Previously I often used a Bach 5G or Alliance 6. I would have used a SM 5, but back then they didn't exist for baritone, just euphonium. I once played baritone on a 1.5G. I wasn't planning on playing bari, & it was the only small shank available!

Some mouthpieces make baritones sound like small euphoniums. Not ideal, the 2 horns have different roles in a band! Equally you don't want to sound like a trombone. I normally do that at louder dynamics on baritones.

Lots of players, myself included, pick on the baritones, but they are a very specialised instrument and are hard to play well.

The SM range have a backbore designed for the baritone, as Pezza mentioned any of that range or the Alliance version would be the one to buy, once you get bigger than a 6 or 5 at biggest you start getting lost in the trombophonium battle, and the British brassband sound is/ should be different and distinct.

Playing in a top/1st section band is a challenge on 1st baritone

Vegasbound wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 2:23 am Playing in a top/1st section band is a challenge on 1st baritone

Totally agree with this.

As a kid/young adult I was comfortable playing the euphonium, tenor/bass trombone and tuba parts in my regular band who were a perennial yo-yo championship/1st section outfit. The first time I went help out a ‚classier’ band, who were regular contenders to win the areas and occasional national championship section contests, it was on 1st baritone. I was sh!tting bricks when I turned up for the rehearsal and picked up an unfamiliar instrument and started playing through the programme. It was a tough workout with a lot of high sustained chords like on the 1st trombone part, occasional technical passages with the euphoniums, some exposed soloistic parts and some small ensemble playing as the lower voice to the tenor horns etc.

When the concert came, all went well and I relished the opportunity, which I probably wouldn’t have got on euphonium, trombone or tuba. A couple of years later I got the call to play at the British Open on 1st baritone with a regular area-contest-winning band. It was a great musical and life experience.

I’ve had the pleasure of playing alongside three college-educated performance specialists on (Britsh) baritone. They were real experts on the instrument and you can tell the difference between a Jack-of-all-trades like me and a proper baritone player. Playing euph or trombone with a classy 1st baritone player makes like so much easier.

The primary difference between baritone and euphonium is the formant - the vowel sound you expect to hear. Euphonium is an open oohhhh sound where as baritone is more of an ahhh or ehhhh sound. Both should be dark, but the baritone can also be a bit lighter. The darkness is the primary difference between the baritone and the brighter trombone sound. To me, the SM-series baritone mouthpieces and their Alliance equivalents totally ruin this and give you a more euphonium-like vowel sound. The darkness comes from your airflow, not from having a deep euphonium-like mouthpiece.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:49 am There are some quite good Chinese baritone horns for pretty cheap.

Any thoughts on the JP 273 or the Wessex BR 140?

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:11 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:49 am There are some quite good Chinese baritone horns for pretty cheap.

Any thoughts on the JP 273 or the Wessex BR 140?

Wessex BR140 (=Jin Bao JBBR-1240) is awesome. I'd take mine over many pro models.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:11 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:49 am There are some quite good Chinese baritone horns for pretty cheap.

Any thoughts on the JP 273 or the Wessex BR 140?

I'm pretty sure they're all the same, minus some finishing touches.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 10:37 am

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 7:11 am


Any thoughts on the JP 273 or the Wessex BR 140?

I'm pretty sure they're all the same, minus some finishing touches.

You are probably right. I think there is one giant factory in China that makes 50 different brands. I am supposed to play 2nd bari for my brass band in a few weeks. They have one I can borrow, but if I stay on that part, I would like to get my own.

bbocaner wrote: ↑Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:23 am The primary difference between baritone and euphonium is the formant

Nobody has yet mentioned the most basic fact. The baritone and euphonium are from different families of brass instruments; the baritone is a member of the saxhorn family and the euphonium is a member of the tuba family. They have different tapers and bell profiles. I regret I don't know enough about the German oval shaped instrument to know if there are two different types.

Cheers

Stewbones43

I played a Wessex 4 valve compensating, not sure of the model no, for a while. Much preferred it over the Prestige that was the other bari available to me.
I got my missus a Schagerl 4 valve non compensating. Great little horn. Generally well in tune, except down in the 4th valve range where baris don't often play.

I think the Wessex BR140 is great!

With regards to the euphonium being a tuba family instrument, yes and no. It's complicated the way the instruments developed. My impression is that the tuba developed independently from saxhorn family instruments which included the Bb bass saxhorn which is a lot closer to what we call a euphonium today than Sommer's original "euphonion" which was a tuba-family instrument. Tubas come in all different shapes and sizes with a huge variety of bore and bell profiles, and while contemporary brass band tubas are very close in bell and bore profile to a euphonium, that's not where the instruments came from. They grew together in that way, they didn't start that way.

I found myself playing 2nd baritone in brass band this fall and after borrowing the directors horn for a few weeks, I found a Yamaha 301S on ebay for $900. Got it last week. Seems like a decent little horn, but it needed a bit of work, so it is currently at the repair shop for a few days.

Well, I had my first rehearsal Monday night with brass band. Figured I was gonna be playing 2nd baritone, but lo and behold, I was on 1st! Wasn't prepared for that!! Had a great time, other than the flubbing notes, trying to get my brain re-wrapped around Bb treble clef music.