Large bore tenor with narrow slide and yellow bell

[havard]

I am looking for a large bore tenor with narrow slide , yellow bell and valve .

I prefer narrow slide for ergonomy , and yellow bell for stability and projection .
I am considering

Conn 88 HY
Courtois 440B
Yamaha xeno YSL-882O er OD (screw bell)

Suggestions / opinions ?

[harrisonreed]

The Shires T47 slide is about that width. They could make you a "Vintage Elkhart" inspired design that has a yellow bell.

[WilliamLang]

I haven't tried a new Conn in years that felt great, fwiw. The Courtois line can be really great when dialed in. I like Yamahas more than most (the feedback is very different to the player even if the sound to the audience is the same,) and the 882OR is nice, don't know how it would react with a screw bell though, I haven't been a fan of the cut bells I've tried in the past.

[harrisonreed]

If you want ergonomics, Courtois is about as bad as it gets:

Screenshot_20201128-194025.png

[heldenbone]

I haven't tried a new Conn in years that felt great, fwiw. The Courtois line can be really great when dialed in. I like Yamahas more than most (the feedback is very different to the player even if the sound to the audience is the same,) and the 882OR is nice, don't know how it would react with a screw bell though, I haven't been a fan of the cut bells I've tried in the past.

I've had good experience with cut bells, but on very different instruments than that under consideration here. On a Getzen 1062 bass, it stabilized the double trigger range a bit for me. On a 70's King 4BF it made articulations speak faster and upper dynamics cleaner longer before breaking up. Again, different beasts; much depends on the player. Your videos have been marvelous lessons for me. Please continue them.

Richard

[Matt K]

Bear in mind that in order to put the collar on a bell that is not already modular, one has to remove the bell, put the collar on it and then resolder it back in place. There's a non-zero chance that the tech that reattached it did a good job and simply reattaching it would have yielded at least some of those benefits. Not saying the ring didn't make the whole bell section better in either circumstance, just something to keep in mind when comparing.

[MrHCinDE]

Bach 42 bell section of some flavour with an Edwards T-STDN slide?

That’s basically my main axe so perhaps I‘m a bit biased but it plays with a lot of the Bach sound and stability mixed with a hint of Conn liveliness. I‘m saying this as a long-term ex-8h/88h player who never really enjoyed a stock Bach 42B but am very happy with this combo, for me the best of both worlds.

[Chatname]

M&W 2Y, Yellow bell with narrow gold brass slide and a great valve. Amazing instrument.

[bassclef]

Add the Xeno 882 to your list, not the O or OR it's the closed-wrap version. I don't know how or why, but it's a drastically different, and in my opinion - better horn than the 882O.

The OR I saw mentioned above has a much wider slide than the 882 or 882O.

[MBurner]

My colleague built a trombone with a Conn 88 yellow bell, Mt. Vernon Bach 42 valve section, 42 inner slide, and 88H rose brass outer slide. Interesting, no? I really liked the horn. It had the compactness (for lack of a better word) to where the horn really didn’t take much effort to play, but could still be a commanding horn in an orchestra setting. I would have purchased it, if money was no object. He still has it for sale on EBay and FB.

[gbedinger]

I had a Shires Elkhart style trombone with 2RVE bell and a 47LW slide. The slide was smaller in width and felt better to me as a primarily bass trombone player. A 42b I had before that with the wide slide never felt right.

[greenbean]

There is a Japanese seller on eBay with a very nice Yamaha 620 for < $1000. Great horns. Medium-width slide, I guess.

[havard]

Different in which way?
I havent seen a closed wrap xeno yet .
Anyone knows if Yamaha plans to upgrade to s more open rotor on their xenos?

Add the Xeno 882 to your list, not the O or OR it's the closed-wrap version. I don't know how or why, but it's a drastically different, and in my opinion - better horn than the 882O.

The OR I saw mentioned above has a much wider slide than the 882 or 882O.

[Digidog]

If you want ergonomics, Courtois is about as bad as it gets:

Screenshot_20201128-194025.png

This for real?? Looks like some photoshopping going on there....

Anyone with Courtois experience who could chime in on this? I'm ogling a Courtois 422, but haven't had the time to go check it out in person.

[harrisonreed]

If you want ergonomics, Courtois is about as bad as it gets:

Screenshot_20201128-194025.png

This for real?? Looks like some photoshopping going on there....

Anyone with Courtois experience who could chime in on this? I'm ogling a Courtois 422, but haven't had the time to go check it out in person.

It's a screen grab of Jorgen van Rijen playing his Courtois. It's real.



I think he came up with an alternate grip, too:



He's not the only one:



And yet another example of the same person using a second alternative grip on the same trombone:



NB: Both Weston and Jorgen sound amazing on their Courtois trombones - not knocking them (that's why the original pic didn't show who the player was) and it obviously works for them. It's just interesting that neither one can seem to settle on a grip. I pinched the side of my palm more or less immediately the first time I tried a Courtois, and I personally wouldn't want to hold my trombone like this. The Weston Sprott horn package was something I was immediately drawn to at the convention -- it fits in a viola case!

[harrisonreed]

OP, how about the Getzen offerings? The Bousfield horn is also Conn width, as are some of the Eterna horns. Maybe ever so slightly wider.

[bassclef]

Different in which way?

There's an entire thread about this. Including a very long post where I compare the 882 to the 882OR.
viewtopic.php?p=206810#p206810

This was written days after I picked up the 882 after having played an 882OR for years. Now that some time has passed and I've played them more, I still stand by everything I wrote. The 882 bell section with the 882OR slide is my personal favorite large bore I've ever played. The stock 882 with the narrow slide is also great. I'm excited to be able to have and play this variable setup.

[Trav1s]

OP, how about the Getzen offerings? The Bousfield horn is also Conn width, as are some of the Eterna horns. Maybe ever so slightly wider.

Bousfield model has a gold brass bell.

882 is a great option for sure.

[Digidog]

This for real?? Looks like some photoshopping going on there....

Anyone with Courtois experience who could chime in on this? I'm ogling a Courtois 422, but haven't had the time to go check it out in person.

It's a screen grab of Jorgen van Rijen playing his Courtois. It's real.



I think he came up with an alternate grip, too:



He's not the only one:



And yet another example of the same person using a second alternative grip on the same trombone:



NB: Both Weston and Jorgen sound amazing on their Courtois trombones - not knocking them (that's why the original pic didn't show who the player was) and it obviously works for them. It's just interesting that neither one can seem to settle on a grip. I pinched the side of my palm more or less immediately the first time I tried a Courtois, and I personally wouldn't want to hold my trombone like this. The Weston Sprott horn package was something I was immediately drawn to at the convention -- it fits in a viola case!

Thanks for clarifying and showing what was going on there! It sure looks like a weird grip. That ergonomics would be deterring me from getting a Courtois, unless there were a work-around, or easy fix of some kind (like changing slide).

I would not want to hold my horn that way, either. I have pinched myself on a Conn 88 with the spring installed, and it was a painful experience - it was actually more of a cut that made an open wound on the outer side of my left hand (in the flesh just behind the little finger), than a pinch.

....and I agree: Both players are great and sound really good.

[Cotboneman]

I am looking for a large bore tenor with narrow slide , yellow bell and valve .

I prefer narrow slide for ergonomy , and yellow bell for stability and projection .
I am considering

Conn 88 HY
Courtois 440B
Yamaha xeno YSL-882O er OD (screw bell)

Suggestions / opinions ?

I have a modern Conn 88HY, with a 47/62 slide in rose brass and three leadpipes (I use the medium). I'm rather fond of that horn - it does project! It's also a much lighter horn than my Bach 42AF. Last year though I had to play some second trombone in an orchestra. The blend with the first was not terrific in the rehearsals (he plays an older Yamaha), so I switched to my Bach for a much better result. My Conn is much more at home I believe in bands, as a solo instrument, or in the quartet and quintets that I play in regularly. Hopefully you have a chance to try all the horns that you listed. That is the key. Good luck!

[rptbone]

How can one fairly generalize that Courtois trombone have “bad ergonomics” because a few pro players use unconventional grips? They would likely use the same grips if they used Bach trombones too, so would that make Bach trombones also ergonomically bad? NO. Let’s be fair here. BTW, their (van Rijen and Sprott) slides are not narrow either. Try one first, I did, and own two with no regrets.

[Matt K]

Those images aren't of unconventional grips, they're demonstrating that the cork barrels are super short on the Courtouis.

[rptbone]

Nope

[rptbone]

Instead of speculating, either get out your calipers and use them, or ask the two out of hundreds of artists why they use odd hand grips. The cork barrels on the Courtois are no shorter than on Bach 42.

[Matt K]

Again, it has nothing to do with individual player's handgrips. I don't think you need to take measurements to notice that people's fingers are dangling off the end of the cork barrel. None of my trombone shave clearance that short

[rptbone]

Circular logic…

[Matt K]

It's not circular logic for people to suggest that their direct experience with a thing being uncomfortable is... well... uncomfortable. I've also nicked my hand trying out Courtouis horns before, too. Clearly it isn't a problem for everyone. Would you like a recording of the scream I make when I nick my hand returning the slide to 1st so that you can validate it's actually me experiencing pain?

[rptbone]

Hit a nerve did we? Who cares.

[harrisonreed]

Hit a nerve did we? Who cares.

It's not the narrow slide, it's the super short cork barrels. You must have small hands so it doesn't bother you. It's cool to like Courtois. It's even cool to be looking at Bach to move away from your Courtois. You're picking fights with the admins though, come on. How about you measure the grip on yours, since you actually bought one and are trying to prove a point, and I'll measure the grip on my Edwards and King.

I would argue that, in general and for most adult players, the Courtois is very difficult to hold with a regular grip.

[harrisonreed]

20240115_104322.jpg

It's 4.5cm from the inside of the brace to the edge of the barrel on Edwards. And that's with leather over the brace.

[AtomicClock]

I'd be interested to see some Courtois numbers. Though I have to admit that over the years I've gone through most of the grips pictured above on my (measures 4.4cm) Bach 42 slide. They all look normal to me. A testament to awkward trombone ergonomics.

[rptbone]

Thank you for proving my point. On the Courtois AC420, it's also 4.5cm from the inside of the brace to the edge of the barrel. So are you now going to claim that both Edwards and Bach 42 have "super short" cork barrels too? To challenge unfounded generalizations is not picking a fight. Measurements are indeed important because the numbers are not subjective. BTW, I wear XL gloves, and find the Courtois just as ergonomic as the Bach, but the Courtois workmanship is consistently far better (based on experience.) I do own three Bach small bore tenors as well, and wanted to love the 42 series, but kept getting duds.

[harrisonreed]

Thank you for proving my point. On the Courtois AC420, it's also 4.5cm from the inside of the brace to the edge of the barrel.

Could you take a pic of your calipers measuring it like I did? I'd like to get to the bottom of why the Courtois is so dang hard to hold. I'll also do a diameter one, because that might be it too. The Edwards has a lip at the end of the barrels.

It could be that different models have different grips too.

[harrisonreed]

20240115_114205.jpg

20240115_114229.jpg

The Edwards barrel is 2.6 cm in diameter.

The slide is 1.7.

If the Courtois isn't shorter, it could be narrower on the grip or wider on the outside of the slide.

But pics would help. I've been saying the thing is hard to hold because of short cork barrels for a long time and want to correct myself if I was wrong. Pics of the three measurements are what I need, and then I gotta go back and correct the two three threads where I've made the claim.

[OneTon]

The Admin appears to be saying, if the hand overhangs the barrel, then the barrel is short. And if the barrel is not short, the hand does not overhang the barrel. Since the contra positive of a true if then statement is always true, the criteria for circular reasoning is not met. All tragedy has its comic aspect.

[harrisonreed]

I for real want to right my wrong if I've been mistaken on the reason for this long.

[rptbone]

[harrisonreed]

So you won't take pics. Just your word? Pretty please?

FWIW, Michel Becquet also holds his Courtois with the crumpled hand grip. Something is going on.

[rptbone]

It would be better for you to take your own measurements to be satisfied.

[OneTon]

With all due respect, the OP requested examples of trombones with narrow slides and yellow bells. If a Courtois meets that criteria, great. If we want to warn the OP that some folks find the ergonomics of Courtois trombones to be challenging in general, and and warn the OP to evaluate the barrel lengths to determine the viability for personal use, that is fine. Debating human factors and barrel lengths might warrant starting a new thread.

[rptbone]

Agree. The third post is where the Courtois ergonomics thing started.

[rptbone]

Correction: refer to 4th post

[harrisonreed]

[ithinknot]

I'd like to get to the bottom of why the Courtois is so dang hard to hold.

It's going to be an issue with wrist position, in the "hand held flat, waving without wrist rotation" plane. If the barrels are a normal length, it's the lever position (or the bell brace position that influences that lever position).

Basically, for your hand the lever is probably either too low, too horizontally close to the bell brace, or some combination. Both planes matter ("height" relative to inner slide brace, "width" relative to the bell brace and mouthpiece receiver).

I have a related problem on the 60H I just got. The barrels are a normal length, and if I pick it up the way I would naturally, there's no risk of palm slice. But the under-thumb lever is close to the bell brace, and at that default grip angle the thumb is too far forward to operate it with minimal motion and, worse, the meaty thumb/palm muscles interfere with the back of the lever. So, I have to tilt my wrist horizontally (i.e. fingers move towards nose). Once the thumb joint is in a more effective position and the thumb muscle is clear of the valve lever, the outside of my palm is overhanging the barrel and Paul Thomas Anderson is planning a bloody sequel. It's worse on those Conns because there's no trim ring or knurling to remind you where the edge is.

[harrisonreed]

I don't want to derail any further, but that could be it. Those measurements would definitely help though...

[ZacharyThornton]

How about this… next week I will measure a Bach 42, Coutrois 420BH, Edwards 396A, and Shires TB47. I have all of those around the shop I work at. Maybe more.

[ZacharyThornton]

My measurements and models I measured:

[sckarpen]

They may have stopped producing them (maybe there’s a used one out there), but Schilke used to have a narrow slide option with their large bore tenor. I’ve never played one, but a Schilke representative that I spoke to said that they were similar to Yamaha Xenos — which I have played, and like well enough.