TromboneChat

First, here are my encounters with bass trombone:

- During high school, the only time that I did not catch flak for playing too loud and ruining balance was when I played bass. While my first encounter with bass was a positive one, I did not end up switching to bass, though.

- I saw my teacher, a tenor player by day, pull out a Bach 50 independent valve model once during a lesson. He also once showed up with a Bach 50 to focus his coaching efforts on the bass trombone player at my school. Seeing a tenor player own and play a bass bone was actually kind of cool.

- James Markey.

- I will confess, there is something especially alluring about the range from pedal E all the way up to G on the bottommost line of bass clef. I feel like I am summoning the thunder. THUN! DER!

- The idea of a G flat valve is really growing on me; like, I can play 5th position notes at 1st now? And I still have the F valve so that I can play 6th and 7th position notes at 1st and 2.5ish too? And if I hold F and G flat together... (I know, watch out for intonation)

With that out of the way, I would like to gauge just "how much" it helps financially to be able to play both. To that end,

- I know that owning and playing both tenor and bass can help increase gig opportunities; with that being said, do you personally prefer to focus on one of the two, or look for both opportunities wherever possible?

- If you have a stable job playing one of tenor or bass (e.g. teacher, instructor, professor, orchestral sectionist, military musician, member of a steadily continuing band, etc), how much time do you spend practicing the other?

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 5:07 pm
- I know that owning and playing both tenor and bass can help increase gig opportunities; with that being said, do you personally prefer to focus on one of the two, or look for both opportunities wherever possible?

- it pretty much comes down to this- I can't afford to be picky. I play euphonium a bunch because, well, I have one and I am not bad at it. Would I rather play trombone in these groups? Yup. But I'll take whatever is offered, bass, tenor, etc.

Im a tenor trombonist.

Today I had a bass gig. Next week I have a bass gig. During the week I teach tenor, bass, euph, and tuba lessons at two different universities.

It absolutely pays to be versatile.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:35 pm Im a tenor trombonist.

Today I had a bass gig. Next week I have a bass gig. During the week I teach tenor, bass, euph, and tuba lessons at two different universities.

Dr. Kris: if I am reading this correctly, you have four engagements that pay on a steady interval (not going into university lecturer contract renewals for now), two of which involves playing tenor and two of which involves teaching the whole gamut of low brass instruments at post-secondary level, and you still (perhaps need to) pick up whatever freelance gig you can get on top of that? I am not doubting you, I am just starstruck.

Reading your case, I had my eyes opened to the scenario where someone who holds down what look to be (at least somewhat) stable employment may still freelance to a surprisingly frequent degree on the side- maybe even out of necessity at that, too. I never would have thought of that. Thank you.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 8:45 pm

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:35 pm Im a tenor trombonist.

Today I had a bass gig. Next week I have a bass gig. During the week I teach tenor, bass, euph, and tuba lessons at two different universities.

Dr. Kris: if I am reading this correctly, you have four engagements that pay on a steady interval (not going into university lecturer contract renewals for now), two of which involves playing tenor and two of which involves teaching the whole gamut of low brass instruments at post-secondary level, and you still (perhaps need to) pick up whatever freelance gig you can get on top of that? I am not doubting you, I am just starstruck.

Reading your case, I had my eyes opened to the scenario where someone who holds down what look to be (at least somewhat) stable employment may still freelance to a surprisingly frequent degree on the side- maybe even out of necessity at that, too. I never would have thought of that. Thank you.

Without going into my finances too deeply, yes I need all that work to make ends modestly meet. This isn’t unusual either. The two schools I teach at are smallish programs that were hit hard during covid and the overall decline of people majoring in music; I have two students at one, and five at the other. I also teach two sections of a MWF music 101 (music appreciation) lecture at one place. Gigs and private lessons makes up the rest of the time. Between the two schools, I have basically a full time load, but I’m adjunct at both, hoping they continue to grow. Again, this is not uncommon. I drive a ton. NERO and Glens Falls are both very part time (probably about 20 services each per year).

Part of the issue is my unwillingness to move away from New England. My classmates from my doctoral program are all over the country chasing tenure. These positions are very rare in this region, and they are gradually disappearing.

I forgot to address part of your original question: I don’t practice bass. If you’re good at trombone, you’re goood at trombone. I’d practice it for a recital or chamber music, but for random easy gigs I just pick it up and play. Same with euph, unless there are fast licks.

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:18 pm
Without going into my finances too deeply, yes I need all that work to make ends modestly meet. This isn’t unusual either. The two schools I teach at are smallish programs that were hit hard during covid and the overall decline of people majoring in music; I have two students at one, and five at the other. I also teach two sections of a MWF music 101 (music appreciation) lecture at one place. Gigs and private lessons makes up the rest of the time. Between the two schools, I have basically a full time load, but I’m adjunct at both, hoping they continue to grow. Again, this is not uncommon. I drive a ton. NERO and Glens Falls are both very part time (probably about 20 services each per year).

Not gonna lie, the "this isn't unusual either" especially had me going "whoa ". Sure, my most formative teacher insinuated that his salary (context: he was second trombonist of the local 60-piece orchestra with a full-time season, based in a city of population 600k) was not quite enough on its own, and another full-time orchestral player that I took a lesson with (context: I moved from the city of 600k to a metro area, and the symphony orchestra is based in one of the cities that comprise the metro) told me that he worried about his retirement when I asked about the financial realities of surviving as a musician relying exclusively on music, but something about you scraping multiple part-time engagements just struck me differently compared to the previous two experiences of mine, and you emphasizing that this is not uncommon was the icing on the cake!

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:18 pm Part of the issue is my unwillingness to move away from New England. My classmates from my doctoral program are all over the country chasing tenure. These positions are very rare in this region, and they are gradually disappearing.

Your geographical province aside, full-time faculty positions have been getting replaced with multiple adjunct posts by university admins in an attempt to reduce costs. This does not seem to be limited to the humanities; there are signs and testimonies that this is encroaching into STEM, and I would not be surprised if the fine arts is also showing signs of that. Of course, considering the notoriety that university admins are gaining due to an unprecedented bloat of admin staff, the "reduce costs" part has been sneered at as being a euphemism for "rake in more money for admins". If you are willing, does there appear to be a noticeable increase in admin staff relative to the size of the institution for the two that you teach at?

Kdanielsen wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 9:18 pm I forgot to address part of your original question: I don’t practice bass. If you’re good at trombone, you’re goood at trombone. I’d practice it for a recital or chamber music, but for random easy gigs I just pick it up and play. Same with euph, unless there are fast licks.

Ah-ha, thank you

If you’re drawn to the sound and role of the bass trombone, then certainly explore and pursue it! I’d caution against learning to play bass simply because of the extra money, though.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:11 pm
Not gonna lie, the "this isn't unusual either" especially had me going "whoa ". Sure, my most formative teacher insinuated that his salary (context: he was second trombonist of the local 60-piece orchestra with a full-time season, based in a city of population 600k) was not quite enough on its own, and another full-time orchestral player that I took a lesson with (context: I moved from the city of 600k to a metro area, and the symphony orchestra is based in one of the cities that comprise the metro) told me that he worried about his retirement when I asked about the financial realities of surviving as a musician relying exclusively on music, but something about you scraping multiple part-time engagements just struck me differently compared to the previous two experiences of mine, and you emphasizing that this is not uncommon was the icing on the cake!

Orchestral players with salaried, not per-service, positions and full seasons have it relatively easy in the grand scheme of things, even in more regional orchestras where the pay is not comparable to major orchestras. Having to gig with different groups every week and combining with teaching to scrape by is par for the course.

And that's where it really helps being versatile.

Sure James Markey is a great example of being highly proficient on both tenor and bass, but frankly he's not the example I would give a student to demonstrate why it's important to double and be versatile. There are very few James Markeys in the world, that could win a major job as both principal or bass. And being proficient on the other is not at all a requirement to win such a job — if you're a top notch bass player, being merely a 'meh' tenor player is not going to hurt your chances for a lot of bass positions, and vice versa. But most musicians won't be winning a major orchestra gig anwyay. Most will freelance, and there you need to be able to play any gig you can get, and versatility is one of the best qualities you can have.

I'm a tenor player, but my private teacher in high school was a bass player who played with the Vermont symphony. I've played a lot of bass parts on tenor. About 10 years ago I bought a bass because I started a quartet but we had no bass player, so I (reluctantly) took the job. I was afraid I'd lose my tenor chops to the bass.

Opportunities do not necessarily equal money here outside of musical bubbles. My number of opportunities has doubled now that I play bass, but I've also been kind of pigeon holed and don't get calls for lead parts although I have pretty good high chops and I'm actually not a great bass player. My range only goes to pedal G, but my bass sound is what people remember.

A lot of the opportunities I get aren't really bass, just "low bone". Mentoring college kids in band from the bottom still works. I bring my 88h or tr159 because I don't need that second valve or constant stuff below low D.

People are still surprised when I pull out a small tenor. I had to start a quintet to get to play tenor regularly.

The bass can be a bit of a trap. If you follow the opportunities, they might lead you away from where you want to go. Make sure it's what you want to do. The worst thing is to start turning down gigs.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:41 pm If you’re drawn to the sound and role of the bass trombone, then certainly explore and pursue it! I’d caution against learning to play bass simply because of the extra money, though.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:00 am Sure James Markey is a great example of being highly proficient on both tenor and bass, but frankly he's not the example I would give a student to demonstrate why it's important to double and be versatile. There are very few James Markeys in the world, that could win a major job as both principal or bass. And being proficient on the other is not at all a requirement to win such a job — if you're a top notch bass player, being merely a 'meh' tenor player is not going to hurt your chances for a lot of bass positions, and vice versa. But most musicians won't be winning a major orchestra gig anwyay. Most will freelance, and there you need to be able to play any gig you can get, and versatility is one of the best qualities you can have.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:12 am The bass can be a bit of a trap. If you follow the opportunities, they might lead you away from where you want to go. Make sure it's what you want to do. The worst thing is to start turning down gigs.

Thank you for the wise words of advice (no sarcasm!). I will definitely take them to heart.

(To hyperbolica but if anyone wants to jump in too): so it seems that doubling has the risk where your potential "employer" (if you will) automatically shoehorns you into one or the other, even though you do in fact offer versatility. How would you make sure that you get your versatility actually known, rather than say, being known as a tenor person in one circle and a bass person in the other? I would like to potentially open the window for the circle that mostly employs me for tenor to also call me for bass when the opportunity appears, and vice versa.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:16 am

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:41 pm If you’re drawn to the sound and role of the bass trombone, then certainly explore and pursue it! I’d caution against learning to play bass simply because of the extra money, though.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 1:00 am Sure James Markey is a great example of being highly proficient on both tenor and bass, but frankly he's not the example I would give a student to demonstrate why it's important to double and be versatile. There are very few James Markeys in the world, that could win a major job as both principal or bass. And being proficient on the other is not at all a requirement to win such a job — if you're a top notch bass player, being merely a 'meh' tenor player is not going to hurt your chances for a lot of bass positions, and vice versa. But most musicians won't be winning a major orchestra gig anwyay. Most will freelance, and there you need to be able to play any gig you can get, and versatility is one of the best qualities you can have.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:12 am The bass can be a bit of a trap. If you follow the opportunities, they might lead you away from where you want to go. Make sure it's what you want to do. The worst thing is to start turning down gigs.

Thank you for the wise words of advice (no sarcasm!). I will definitely take them to heart.

(To hyperbolica but if anyone wants to jump in too): so it seems that doubling has the risk where your potential "employer" (if you will) automatically shoehorns you into one or the other, even though you do in fact offer versatility. How would you make sure that you get your versatility actually known, rather than say, being known as a tenor person in one circle and a bass person in the other? I would like to potentially open the window for the circle that mostly employs me for tenor to also call me for bass when the opportunity appears, and vice versa.

Yeah that's tricky. There's always a danger of getting pigeon-holed/typecast, and to some extent it's unavoidable. There are always people who by chance will be exposed to your playing one instrument more than the other and will associate you with that one. What I find particularly frustrating is that if your level is not exactly the same on both, people who know you primarily for the instrument that's not your best can often assume that reflects your level on the other. So I think it's always a good idea to actively seek and create opportunities to play both instruments in front of all circles as much as possible.

wnlqxod wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 11:16 am

(To hyperbolica but if anyone wants to jump in too): so it seems that doubling has the risk where your potential "employer" (if you will) automatically shoehorns you into one or the other, even though you do in fact offer versatility. How would you make sure that you get your versatility actually known, rather than say, being known as a tenor person in one circle and a bass person in the other? I would like to potentially open the window for the circle that mostly employs me for tenor to also call me for bass when the opportunity appears, and vice versa.

You can make sure to ask "tenor or bass? " when you get hired, or always show up with both horns. Also if you can get in steady groups where you play each, that will help. I play tenor in quintet and bass in quartet and big band.

The problem in this area is 1) a lack of bass players combined with 2) a real glut of well above average retired tenor players.

I've made the further mistake of mentioning I own a tuba, so I have had calls on that as well. I'm a decent tenor player, not a great bass player and even worse on tuba. Sometimes I replace the tuba with a euph and no one seems the wiser. I never get called to play euph.

My situation is due mostly to where I live, which has a small urban center, but its mostly suburban and rural.

I think it really depends on what kind of work you do, or want to do. If you are a symphony player, it’s probably not a big deal. But if you freelance, it can be everything. These days, if you want to play in pit orchestras or do studio work, you absolutely have to play both. Then you have to bring both to the gig. Especially with studio work, you never know what you’re going to have to play Until you get there, and you definitely want to have a double there just in case.

Bill Reichenbach is a fantastic bass trombone player who is also a wonderful tenor trombone player. Lew McCreary also played both tenor and bass equally well, and worked pretty much equally on both horns. So it just depends. But if you are a freelancer or commercial player, you definitely want to play both bass and tenor trombone.

For a freelance trombonist, based on my own experience and those of other freelancers I know:

Essential: small tenor, large tenor, bass
Recommended: tuba, euphonium, contrabass trombone (if you live in LA)
Bonus/gravy: sousaphone, bass trumpet, alto trombone, contrabass trombone (if you don't live in LA)

Definitely not required, but if you can play it even decently you'll get a lot of work: trumpet, bass guitar
Definitely not required, but if you can play it very well you might get an occasional gig: keys, French horn, mellophone

So the thread is financial benefits to doubling. I wish more young students would think this way rather than say I'm a bass bone player. Why limit yourself. Yes you can be good at one but be proficient at three- small, large tenor and bass. Let the phone ring and instead of saying no, you can cover the gig. More gigs, more fun, more money, more variety in your playing. And learn how to play and enjoy large straight tenor and single valve bass- you actually may enjoy that too!

timbone wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:31 pm So the thread is financial benefits to doubling. I wish more young students would think this way rather than say I'm a bass bone player. Why limit yourself. Yes you can be good at one but be proficient at three- small, large tenor and bass. Let the phone ring and instead of saying no, you can cover the gig. More gigs, more fun, more money, more variety in your playing. And learn how to play and enjoy large straight tenor and single valve bass- you actually may enjoy that too!

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:34 pm Definitely not required, but if you can play it very well you might get an occasional gig: keys, French horn, mellophone

I'm very curious to know what kind of mellophone gigs are out there. Just Kenton bands?

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:13 pm I play euphonium a bunch

I'm also surprised that euphonium gigs are out there.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:48 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Oct 21, 2023 6:13 pm I play euphonium a bunch

I'm also surprised that euphonium gigs are out there.

You're telling me!

Now that I think about it, I've done more gigs on Euphonium than I would have expected when I first picked up my beater YSL321 around 10 years ago.

Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 4:58 am Now that I think about it, I've done more gigs on Euphonium than I would have expected when I first picked up my beater YSL321 around 10 years ago.

Haha, sounds exactly like my story (with just about 4-5 years ago).

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 9:42 pm I'm very curious to know what kind of mellophone gigs are out there. Just Kenton bands?

I wish! I would love to play those Kenton arrangements on the instruments they were intended for.

But no, most of my mellophone gigs are either local professional marching bands (small groups that hire freelancers and provide uniforms to do outdoor gigs for weddings and such), or opportunities that I create myself. I use the mellophone a lot in remote horn section recording work and in a few live bands I gig with regularly, where in both cases I'm the one writing the horn parts.

For a lot of weirder instruments, you have to create your own opportunities to use them rather than waiting on someone to take an interest. Though that does sometimes happen...I introduced one bandleader to the mellophonium and he LOVES it, so he always writes me a part for it in his groups.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Oct 22, 2023 4:10 pm
Bill Reichenbach is a fantastic bass trombone player who is also a wonderful tenor trombone player.

Bill is such a good tenor (and alto) player that for several years in the mid 1970s he held a chair in Toshiko Akiyoshi-Lew Tabackin Big Band. (He played alto on Road Time Shuffle, in the flute/clarinet/flugel/trombone passage coming out of the open solo section. I said, 'held a chair' because that was the era when Toshiko was emulating Duke Ellington and writing for her players rather than writing parts.) Why wasn't Bill playing bass? Well, Phil Teele was in that chair. (I'm not saying Teele was a better bass player than Reichenbach, just that Teele got there first.)

I double out of sheer necessity, because I combine a small teaching position with freelancing, conducting/rehearsing and writing.

I play alto, tenor, "large" tenor (i.e. a King 3B+) and bass.

To that end, on regular weeks where I have no specific engagements, I practise tenor and alto about an hour each, daily four days a week, and bass as much time I can squeeze out two days, with, if possible, one day per week for R&R.

That's the ideal schedule, but all too often there are biases in what I'm asked to play, so mostly I focus on the required instrument at hand and put in as much practise as possible on the others.

I find it very necessary to regularly practise bass, to keep and develop valve skills and dexterity, breathing stamina and tonal timing - both internal and external tone. Alto also needs to be practised, but more for intonation, sound and agility.

Ironically, as someone who has exclusively studied tenor trombone throughout college and private study: aside from the one regional orchestra position that I won on tenor, nearly every paid or volunteer gig I've had has been on either bass trombone or euphonium. Versatility helps a LOT.
- If you are a freelancer and demonstrate that you can play bass trombone WELL, you will get positive recognition and hopefully get gigs. You don't have to be able to play "Fly or Die" from memory; it can be as simple as making a good sound and playing without dragging (something that I've heard many non-trombonists comment on regarding bass bone players). As a previous poster agreed: I don't practice bass trombone nearly to the degree that I practice tenor. I simply play it like a mildly bigger tenor!
- If you join a regional military band and can double well on euphonium and/or bass trombone, you will become your director's favorite person (hint: promotion). Bonus if you can read French horn parts on euphonium, and play unseasonably loud on big band bass bone parts.

As an unrelated side note: playing other instruments (not just other tenor brass instruments, but other ones in general) has helped me avoid burnout many times. Feeling sick of tenor? Play stuff on bass! I cannot recommend it enough!

In my opinion doubling in any combination is of course very helpful to provide you with more playing opportunities. I am mostly not playing for financial benefit, but also happy about all good playing opportunities.

However the required invest regarding practice time varies a lot depending on situation/type of gigs.

Playing bass in a Dvorak symphony is feasible without much dedicated practice time on bass. Brahms 1 can already be a bit tricky - if you want to do it well. Bass in a good bigband playing Buddy Rich, Chris Walden, Gordon Goodwin etc? I don't think I know anyone who could do that well without regularly practicing bass.

Playing first on tenor can on the other hand be challenging for primarily bass players. And alto in the Mozart Requiem or Rhenish if you don't play alto regularly can be a very frustrating experience for yourself and everyone around.

What I want to say with this: Doubling is extremely beneficial, but if you want to do it well, it is definitely work.

MStarke wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 8:59 am In my opinion doubling in any combination is of course very helpful to provide you with more playing opportunities. I am mostly not playing for financial benefit, but also happy about all good playing opportunities.

However the required invest regarding practice time varies a lot depending on situation/type of gigs.

Playing bass in a Dvorak symphony is feasible without much dedicated practice time on bass. Brahms 1 can already be a bit tricky - if you want to do it well. Bass in a good bigband playing Buddy Rich, Chris Walden, Gordon Goodwin etc? I don't think I know anyone who could do that well without regularly practicing bass.

Playing first on tenor can on the other hand be challenging for primarily bass players. And alto in the Mozart Requiem or Rhenish if you don't play alto regularly can be a very frustrating experience for yourself and everyone around.

What I want to say with this: Doubling is extremely beneficial, but if you want to do it well, it is definitely work.

I agree with this in general, talking as someone looking at it in terms of playing opportunities which are not always financially motivated.

One small addition is that having put in the hard yards in the past focussing on each instrument for an extended period of time, I have now got used to working back up to (nearly) my peak form pretty quickly on each as required. I believe this is only possible due to the many miles on the clock in the past and focussed practice.

For me, doubling is also very rewarding and as said by MStarke, it is definitely work, though once you‘ve put the work in and saved that away in the muscle memory etc. you can benefit from it for years and it can be maintained and managed quite well.

As a side note, some of my best playing experiences have come on instruments/settings which I didn‘t consider my main instrument/setting at the time, e.g. British Baritone, EEb Tuba, Euphonium in symphony orchestra. It‘s worth keeping an open mind and answering all phone calls!

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:34 pm For a freelance trombonist, based on my own experience and those of other freelancers I know:

Essential: small tenor, large tenor, bass
Recommended: tuba, euphonium, contrabass trombone (if you live in LA)
Bonus/gravy: sousaphone, bass trumpet, alto trombone, contrabass trombone (if you don't live in LA)

Definitely not required, but if you can play it even decently you'll get a lot of work: trumpet, bass guitar
Definitely not required, but if you can play it very well you might get an occasional gig: keys, French horn, mellophone

I'm pretty sure there aren't many who "double" quite so adeptly as you, and on so many different instruments!