Swapping Directly From One Trigger To Another on Bass Trombone (F to Gb)

[pj0004]

My first post here, been lurking from time to time.

**This is cross-posted on Reddit, I apologize in advance for the spam or if that isn't OK. I like the answers there, I'm just looking for more opinions.**

I recently picked up my bass trombone (2 trigger independent Bb/F/Gb/D) and started playing again after a long break. Through the years, I misplaced my books and such from when I used to play in high school and college, so I bought a beginner trombone book, and found some good (legally free) warmup exercises online to get myself back in shape.

However, I ran across one exercise that gave me pause. It's an exercise that seems specially made for the type of horn that I have. It swaps between each of the valve combinations at a given slide position in a running series of 8th notes - no rests in between. What struck me as different is that it switches between each of the triggers directly: 2T-T1-T2-T1-2T-open (for example, the progression in first position is D-F-Gb-F-D-Bb repeating 3x). The exercise then continues the same pattern in each slide position, to a 5 total patterns (since you can't go further with 2 triggers), with the last starting on pedal Bb in flat 7th, Bb-Db-D-Db-Bb-Gb).

My instructor back in high school told me that one should not play this way, swapping directly from the F to Gb trigger or the other way around. Though it was fine to swap from one trigger to both and back, and from the open horn to any combination.

Was my teacher unique in that opinion? Have times changed since I stopped playing years ago?

Hopefully my question makes sense, and I described the exercise well.

Thanks in advance!

[SimmonsTrombone]

There are lots of opinions on this. In an actual piece it would depend on the notes before and after to me. I think you need a good bass trombone book. I'd recommend Brad Edwards, but there are others.

[Matt K]

I would probably play most of that with the 2nd trigger if I had a Gb valve. Eg. D (T1), F (T2), Gb (T2), F (T2), D (1+2), Bb (open)

[ithinknot]

You might choose or advise *not* to do it in a musical context because it tests valve coordination, and matching the tone note-to-note across different valve combinations is difficult.

Those are also the reasons you *would* practice it.

Similarly, alternating the same repeated note in different positions (e.g low F T1/T2/6th) would be a stupid way of playing repeated notes, but is a good exercise.

[pj0004]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'd recommend Brad Edwards, but there are others.

Would this be "Bass Trombone Craft" ??
link - https://www.hickeys.com/music/studio/dr ... -craft.php

[SimmonsTrombone]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I'd recommend Brad Edwards, but there are others.

Would this be "Bass Trombone Craft" ??
link - https://www.hickeys.com/music/studio/dr ... -craft.php

Yes, that's it. Incidentally, you'll find that almost every book has a different way of indicating valve choices. So study the beginning of the book to be sure you understand which valve he's using.

[GabrielRice]

I wasn't exactly taught NOT to do that, but it's very rare that I do. Not sure how old you are, but Thayer valves were not that common when I was first learning bass trombone, and the instrument of choice for most was a Bach 50B3, which typically has pretty clunky valves. The modern rotary, Thayer, Hagmann, TruBore, etc, valves available now are much smoother in transitions and much more even in sound and response than what was commonly available only about 3 decades ago.

More importantly, I find that many of the young players I teach who have deeply ingrained habits of switching between valves a lot do NOT have great habits of accurate slide placement, and therefore have questionable intonation. Also, they tend to play instruments that have big, wide-open slots, so it's harder for them to feel when they are in the best part of the sound. Sometimes I have to instruct them very directly to stick to one valve as much as possible for a while, in order to get them playing in the center of the pitch.

Of course, all of the above is gross generalization. It is certainly possible to play smoothly and make beautiful and even sounds on old-style rotary valves, and it is certainly possible to play well in tune while using the valves interchangeably. But those are skills developed with practice, and sometimes the best practice methods involve limiting choices and perfecting one thing at a time.

[pj0004]

Thanks for the replies so far.



Would this be "Bass Trombone Craft" ??
link - https://www.hickeys.com/music/studio/dr ... -craft.php

Yes, that's it. Incidentally, you'll find that almost every book has a different way of indicating valve choices. So study the beginning of the book to be sure you understand which valve he's using.

Thanks! Yes, I recall seeing that in the past as well, and when chatting with other bass trombonists and reviewing music. I looked at the preview pages as well, and it seems like the book uses V for F attachment, gamma for Gb (though these could be swapped, but I doubt it), and delta for both triggers.

Thanks again!

[pj0004]

I wasn't exactly taught NOT to do that, but it's very rare that I do. Not sure how old you are, but Thayer valves were not that common when I was first learning bass trombone, and the instrument of choice for most was a Bach 50B3, which typically has pretty clunky valves. The modern rotary, Thayer, Hagmann, TruBore, etc, valves available now are much smoother in transitions and much more even in sound and response than what was commonly available only about 3 decades ago.

That's an interesting and excellent point, that could have been the instruction from my teacher simply based on the horn I have (it was a while ago, so I don't recall). Thank you for that!

I have a Bach 50B-something (from what I can tell it's the same style as the 50B3O valve config with some customization, I don't have any paperwork from when I purchased it, and the bell just has a 50BG stamp without any other details) from the mid-90s with what one might call 'standard' rotary valves. I also recall that Thayer valves were not that common at the time as well and other more experience folks calling them out specifically, sounding impressed or skeptical (I was rather ignorant about much of the trombone world when I started playing...and I suppose that I still am).

More importantly, I find that many of the young players I teach who have deeply ingrained habits of switching between valves a lot do NOT have great habits of accurate slide placement, and therefore have questionable intonation. Also, they tend to play instruments that have big, wide-open slots, so it's harder for them to feel when they are in the best part of the sound. Sometimes I have to instruct them very directly to stick to one valve as much as possible for a while, in order to get them playing in the center of the pitch.

Of course, all of the above is gross generalization. It is certainly possible to play smoothly and make beautiful and even sounds on old-style rotary valves, and it is certainly possible to play well in tune while using the valves interchangeably. But those are skills developed with practice, and sometimes the best practice methods involve limiting choices and perfecting one thing at a time.

I think my teacher may have been worried about that.

In getting back into playing, composing this thread, and thinking more about how I've played my horn has led me to (re-)realize that I have treated it much more like a dependent system. Double valve independent horns weren't that old at the time I got mine (commercially available in the early to mid 1970s from what I can gather), so it could be that my teacher learned in the dependent style (maybe I'm building a memory of a story of horn conversion from dependent to independent) and taught me that way, or perhaps I just internalized it that way.

I tend to stay on the open horn as much as possible, then use the F attachment, and then use the Gb attachment as a 'last resort' or when playing Db down to B natural, rather than using the Gb attachment more 'naturally' like the F. Maybe it was because I got the horn when I was young, and it was 'heavy' or uncomfortable to hold the horn with my finger on the Gb trigger all the time (there is very little room between the slide and the arm of the trigger when it is depressed). It could also be influenced by two of the more dedicated bass trombone books I had: Lew Gillis' "70 Progressive Studies" and the Etude book, which are written for a single valve bass trombone, so I didn't especially 'need' the Gb trigger "by design".

Thanks for the info and thoughts!
Time to get some dedicated books for double valve and start expanding my technique.

[aasavickas]

I use the Blair Bollinger "1/4 tone G" tuning. It is basically a short valve that plays a slightly sharp G in first.He used valves independently, especially the G valve all the time which includes going from 1 to 2 or one to another in order to get a clean slur or articulation and play smoothly and in tune.

It lines up all the partials so that when you play scales or appeggios you don't have to adjust. You still have to for the F valve. You can tune the F short too and not use the F valve in first and instead use the G valve in 3rd. This short valve makes all the G valve alone and both valves at the same time, align with the partials up an octave. So my C in the staff with the second valve alone, is lined right up with the C above. Also, the lower motes that are normally long are right where they are supposed to be.

I researched it and decided it made sense when I bought my first bass, I had it cut. I usually keep a regular Gb slide around in case I sell it. Bollinger has a book subtitled, "You have two valves, use them".

Old Valves were stuffy so people used dependent set ups to avoid blowing thru two stuffy valves all the time. I use the second valve alone all the time. The whole book is exercises intended to teach you how to use "alternate" positions with each valve independently.

New valves are much better and faster. The history of the instrument usually means that older folks learned on dependents and younger folks on independent so preferences fall accordingly.

For orchestral parts, you can play 95% on a single valve with the occasional pull to E or learn to lip the low B really well which is not that hard to learn.

For solos and fast big band charts, two valves makes it much easier to bark loud when needed and keep up with the Bari. You can absolutely play what you need on a single bass or dependent or traditional Bb/F/Gb tuning. I'm just saying what makes mechanical and musical sense to me for the sound I want. Not trying to disparage players preferences. I don't care for the sound most modern american orchestral bass bone players sound. It is too woofy, unfocused, dull, and unfortunately, out of tune.

IMHO, the reason so many bass trombonists play out of tune, with woofy articulations, and can't play quickly is bc they think using the valves a lot is cheating or whatever. They are just wrong on that but to each his own.

Yes coordinating valves with the slide and each other requires practice like everything else. However, every other brass instrument can do it, so why not learn if it makes stuff easier to play well and focus on the music.

Just try everything, use what works, ignore the people who say there is only one way to do things, they are wrong.

[aasavickas]

https://www.hickeys.com/music/studio/un ... ombone.php

The book is great even if you ignore the tuning. Lots of good scale exercices.

[ghmerrill]

If you look on Youtube, you'll see some pretty impressive examples of such switching by some excellent bass trombonists. I think this is particularly true for people who use the Bollinger tuning.

To some degree, I think any dispute and strongly held views here may be a manifestation of the somewhat dogmatic divide between the "Only use the valves when you need them." school and the "You've got two valves -- use them!" school -- which can also be seen as a divide between the "old" (or traditional) school and the "new" school in bass trombone technique. Or also a divide between those who see the bass trombone as simply a (more complicated) kind of trombone and those who see the bass trombone as essentially a different instrument.

So there's a certain amount of ideology involved in some of the "recommendations" and "guidelines" or "rules" that you'll see. But there's also a certain amount of sense. You've just got to sort that out and make your own decisions -- which will require some experience and experimenting.

[aasavickas]

Gary is 100% correct.

I try to always mention this important caveat:

Try everything, use what works and ignore the rest.

This is music, it is subjective and everyone has a different face and sound concept.

I wouldnt sweat the details unless there is something you want to do but can't do presently, so you need to work out how to practice working that bit out.

[Kbiggs]

However, I ran across one exercise that gave me pause. It's an exercise that seems specially made for the type of horn that I have. It swaps between each of the valve combinations at a given slide position in a running series of 8th notes - no rests in between. What struck me as different is that it switches between each of the triggers directly: 2T-T1-T2-T1-2T-open (for example, the progression in first position is D-F-Gb-F-D-Bb repeating 3x). The exercise then continues the same pattern in each slide position, to a 5 total patterns (since you can't go further with 2 triggers), with the last starting on pedal Bb in flat 7th, Bb-Db-D-Db-Bb-Gb).

My instructor back in high school told me that one should not play this way, swapping directly from the F to Gb trigger or the other way around. Though it was fine to swap from one trigger to both and back, and from the open horn to any combination.

Like other people in this thread have stated, it’s hard to coordinate the air, tongue, slide, and two valves simultaneously. For a performance, it might not be a good choice, but there is always that one passage…

However, I think it is good practice. For example, Paul Faulise’s books start with long tone exercises like the one you describe. One of them has the same scenario: going from open, to one valve, then another, then both, and various combinations. It was good practice for me as a developing player because it forced me to listen for the differences in sound between the open horn and the different valve combinations. It also highlights intonation tendencies. While the open horn often sounds best at slow tempi (due to the overtones involved and the ratio of slide tubing to valve tubing), it’s not always the best choice for fast passages.

A lot of professional orchestral players like Blair Bollinger, George Curran, etc., recommend using both valves. (Gerry Pagano and Doug Yeo were two of the most recent orchestral bass trombonists who adhered to dependent tuning. They both sounded great, and were not limited by their choice of a dependent horn. From what I’ve heard, neither has Chris Stearn!) Of course, you really have to practice the different combinations and perfect them, like Gabe said. Sometimes you’ll find a passage that can be played several different ways. Practice all the different combinations, then use what sounds best and is easiest to play.

[Sesquitone]

Activating one valve while de-activating another (or two others), or vice versa, is routine technique on valved low-brasswind instruments with rotary valves (French horn, euphonium, tuba, . . .). It takes some practice to get a clean synchronised switch. The same should apply to trombones with independent dual, in-line valves (regardless of the internal valve geometry). It's important to have comfortably placed spatulas, appropriate throw lengths, and quiet linkages without backlash.

Although the original post concerned Bb/F-Gb-D tuning, there has been some discussion of the Bollinger tuning, as well, where the finger-actuated valve is tuned "half-way" between G-natural and G-flat. Compared with the G-flat tuning, the Bollinger tuning places all the finger-trigger AND double-trigger tones 53 mm further out along the slide. And also has the effect of putting more "vertical distance" between the thumb-trigger (F-valve) and finger-trigger harmonics. [Whereas the F-valve and Gb-valve harmonics are a little bit too close together.] This helps with some scales and arpeggios. [You lose the alternate (non-pedal) Bb1 and its pedal.]

With the other popular tuning, Bb/F-G(natural)-"(flat)Eb", the finger-trigger AND double-trigger tones are now 105 mm further out along the slide compared with those using the G-flat tuning. This places even more "vertical distance" between the thumb-trigger and finger-trigger harmonics--and opens up even more "naturally placed" positions for scales and arpeggios. Again, you lose the (non-pedal) Bb1, and the low B-natural is a bit more of a stretch. But, as pointed out by Denson Paul Pollard*, you also gain a handy D3 and G-naturals (G1, G2, G3) in first position (and some very useful G-valve fifth harmonics).

All of this information (and much more) can be seen at a glance on the attached ETSP Charts for these three tunings.

________
*Explanation of G valve tuning with musical examples - YouTube


.

[AtomicClock]

To some degree, I think any dispute and strongly held views here may be a manifestation of the somewhat dogmatic divide between the "Only use the valves when you need them." school and the "You've got two valves -- use them!" school -- which can also be seen as a divide between the "old" (or traditional) school and the "new" school in bass trombone technique. Or also a divide between those who see the bass trombone as simply a (more complicated) kind of trombone and those who see the bass trombone as essentially a different instrument.

I think that last sentence says a lot. If you're not "all in" on bass trombone, maybe take gigs on tenor as well, developing a technique that only works for one horn might be counterproductive. As a Bb/F tenor trombonist, I feel an odd responsibility to maintain my ability to use 6th and 7th, though i don't go out there very often. I suspect many euphers & tubers feel a similar responsibility to remain competent on a 3v horn; though the Steven Meads of the world may not.

[ghmerrill]

I think the issue with the button-pushers (of which I am one) is substantially different from those who have that giant dynamic tuning slide sticking out in front (of which I am one). Essentially, the button-pushers don't use their 4th valves as much as the "play 'em if you've got 'em" bass trombonists the two they have. They don't benefit from them in avoiding inconvenient slide position sequences. Take a look at fingering charts for both 4-valve compensating and non-compensating euphoniums and you'll see that there just aren't many alternate fingerings using 4th valve. You CAN use it in and above the staff (and it frequently is used for C and B in the staff), but there just isn't any benefit to it.

One reason is intonation issues that are difficult or impossible to address -- because you don't have that big slick tuning slide in front. Another is the tone quality ("stuffiness"). And another is the clumsiness of the fingerings.

For non-compensating 4-valve butting-pushers, things can be even worse. I just HATE in-line 4-th valves. When I was playing my full-size BBb rotary tuba I even went so far as to "trombonize" it to some degree: vented the first valve and lapped the slide so that I could use it dynamically to play in tune for most 1st valve combinations. And a number of tubists do this. So then the only reason I used the forth valve was when I needed it to extend the range (or possibly for some really weird passage where it was advantageous over the 3-valve alternative(s) -- which was very rare.