TromboneChat

Hi

I live in a small rural town. Not many choices of bands/orchestras to play in but I've found a wind band not too far away that are generally of a good standard.

When I joined there's a youngish (compared to me!) trombonist, say in his early 20s, so I took the 2nd seat. He's been playing for maybe three years. He does a lot for the band, sorting out the music; being he sound engineer for gigs; sorting out seating; generally organising things; etc., etc. He's very well liked and very very popular. He is disabled.

When he plays, his tonguing can be weak and draggy and his entries are quite often late, particularly on faster passages (you remember the beginners problem of not getting the note to speak quickly enough?).

During rehearsals the conductor often stops and tells us that the troms were late. 2nd time around is usually OK, but people look around at me sort-of accusingly and on one occasion shouted to me to "follow the beat". I know I'm a long way from a perfect player but I can generally play in time.

So this is the dilemma.

Do I smile sweetly and "suck it up", ensuring I play loud enough to drive him forward (but we rehearse in a small room and the conductor keeps telling us to reign it in) or do I throw my toys out the pram and tell them it's not me? But that would be churlish, bad manners and wouldn't be popular.

Tricky.

What would you in this situation?

If you like playing w the band continue. Talk to the conductor privately and tell him what’s going on.

It really bugs you so approach the conductor and share your thoughts. As for others sharing their opinions in such a matter, someone should approach them and tell them to cut it out because that is rude. In the mean time just ignore ignorant people.

If he was the only trombone player in the band until you arrived, then the rest of the group should already be fully aware of his weaknesses. The conductor, in particular, should know exactly what's going on; if not, that doesn't speak well for their competence as a conductor, does it?

How long have you been with the group?

Find a new band.

Do you want to make it better, or assign blame?
Ask the conductor to do a sectional rehearsal with the trombones. And/or do it yourself. And/or suggest lessons. If the guy is that dedicated, that shouldn't be a problem

^this^

Thanks for the thoughts.

Firstly, there are no other bands within a sensible distance, so I'm stuck with this if I want to play.

Before I joined the band he played very quietly so it's likely that nobody was really aware. I like to think I always play at the right(-ish) dynamic - and that was a shock to the band, in a very positive way - but since I've been there his playing is much stronger and confident, so the "issue" is more obvious.

I really don't want to assign blame, but just don't want to be the fall guy for someone else.

Mini-sectionals is a good idea. There's not much free time available but we should be able to squeeze 20 mins in.

.... and a quiet word with the conductor is due.

Cheers

I played professionally for over 30 years in all kinds of ensembles. When I technically retired I still had the urge to play some more even though I knew the groups that I played in wouldn't be in the same league as what I had previously experienced. A lot of players just "hang it up" and go on about their business but I just couldn't do that. I wound up playing in a semi half-assed big band and enjoyed it immensely ! It was either the joy of playing without the slightest infraction being called out by a conductor or the joy of playing for the most severe critic -- ME -- that made the experience one of total enjoyment. Did I hear the out of tune playing, rhythmic uncertainty and lack of blend ? Of course I did, but I received it all as a bunch of really nice guys doing the best that they could and focused on challenging myself to improve from my personal status quo. That is what I suggest that you do. If you really need to play to satisfy an internal urge, you should put the focus on personal improvement and not stir up a lot of resentment by making personal attacks on any of the other players. Believe me, any "secret" conversation with a conductor won't be a "secret" for long and the fallout will not be pleasant. Focus on yourself and your personal improvement within the context of the group and you may turn out to be the new principal trombonist !

2bobone wrote: ↑Sun Nov 12, 2023 5:00 pm That is what I suggest that you do. If you really need to play to satisfy an internal urge, you should put the focus on personal improvement and not stir up a lot of resentment by making personal attacks on any of the other players. Believe me, any "secret" conversation with a conductor won't be a "secret" for long and the fallout will not be pleasant. Focus on yourself and your personal improvement within the context of the group and you may turn out to be the new principal trombonist !

I agree with this, 100%. Secrets don't stay secret and can create awkward situations that can make groups untenable.

These kinds of situations happen in the professional world too and can be super frustrating. I just played a session a few weeks ago that had a really out of tune tubist (I was playing bass bone as the only other low brass) with a really strong upper brass section. it was painful all around. Just did my best to play as well as possible and be as easy to play with as possible while being as polite as possible. First hornist and trumpet pulled me aside after to say thanks for handling that situation well and have called me for more work. People with good ears always hear what's going on and can hear when you're trying to make the situation better. I'd be hesitant to say something to the conductor unless you have a very good relationship- it's a really delicate can of worms.

I would have a polite word with anyone who yells stuff like that and just say that the section is aware, working to fix it, and that kind of behavior makes it more difficult.

The reason I asked how long the OP had been in the ensemble is that these things sometimes work themselves out over time. Eventually, the young man on first trombone will be absent, and the group will get to hear the OP play by himself. It'll take the truly obtuse a few go-rounds, but most of the group will hear it right away.

In a perfect world, the young man is truly dedicated to the group and will eventually take the initiative to resolve the issue himself.

If you as an experienced player notice a problem in the secotion, speak PRIVATELY with the conductor. Explain what you think is the problem and if you could work on it with the player with the conductor's blessings. Get the conductor's approval to do so. Then, ask for a short meeting of the three of you, with the conductor doing the talking. The idea is to approach the problem positively.

If the conductor isn't interesting in helping with this problem, find another group. If the player isn't interested in solving the problem, and the conductor backs him up, find another group. A decent conductor should be thankful for the information and be open to possible positive solutions. If not, he/she isn't a good conductor and things will become even more unpleasant with time anyway.

Play it correctly yourself and see if he catches on and follows you.

You noted he was disabled in some way.

If that is part of his playing difficulties, he may not be capable of doing better, and any attempts to help him improve may cause badly hurt feelings. And not just his, but the whole group's.

You're new here and have not been fully assimilated into the group. I'm inclined to think this may be one of those "never miss a chance to keep your mouth shut" situations.

Very useful advice.

Yes his disability is a factor. For example, he cannot double-tongue, so attempts to single-tongue those pesky semiquaver "fanfare-ish" passages and that drags the whole thing down. His disability and his determination to not let it stop him is one of the reasons I haven't said anything yet (..and also a reason I didn't take over the 1st seat)

Slightly changing the subj, he has a 'bone with an F plug, which he can't operate with his thumb. His Dad has rigged up a bass-drum peddle with a very long bowden cable connected to the valve, so he can operate it with his foot. Brilliant bit of lateral thinking.

As father of a disabled child, I would like to comment on this. (Even though my daughter will never be able to play any kind of musical instrument)

First of all I am sure you are handling and addressing this with the very best intentions to find a good way together and support the other trombone player.

What I experience with my own child, but also with other disabled people is that - while it is extremely important for society and generally speaking beneficial - it does request a degree of commitment and acceptance from the surrounding.
So I would like to further encourage to continue showing support, even if you may feel it limits yourself in some points.
Still it is absolutely good and I would appreciate this if it were my child, if in a small appropriate setting you try to find constructive ways to improve it. This could be sectionals - not with the goal to show the issue, but to improve together. This could also be getting to know each other better, agreeing on simplifying parts, encouraging to breath together. Or even offer joint warm-ups and practice sessions.

samopn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 7:28 am Slightly changing the subj, he has a 'bone with an F plug, which he can't operate with his thumb. His Dad has rigged up a bass-drum peddle with a very long bowden cable connected to the valve, so he can operate it with his foot. Brilliant bit of lateral thinking.

Sounds great!
I am not too good at these things, but also need to come to some unusual solutions for my daughter.
Would be great to see a picture at some point.

Would be great to see a picture at some point.

I'll try and take a picture. I'm sure he'll be ok with it

Not sure how relevant this is, but I had a similar situation in a community band with a baritone player that was always out of tune. After a month or so I asked him about tuning, and he showed me the one tuning slide that he moved when tuning the open note. He said that the instrument was always a bit wonky, and that he was saving up for a better one. I asked him why he didn't also tune his valves with the individual slides, and I got a blank stare. Turns out he didn't know about the OTHER tuning slides on the instrument. 3 minutes later he sounded worlds better.

I know that's not relevant to a trombone, but just a fun story I thought I would share.

MStarke wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 8:51 am ...
Sounds great!
I am not too good at these things, but also need to come to some unusual solutions for my daughter.
Would be great to see a picture at some point.

It might be easier to make a second finger trigger for a single-valve horn.

Ozzlefinch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:58 am ... I asked him why he didn't also tune his valves with the individual slides, and I got a blank stare. Turns out he didn't know about the OTHER tuning slides on the instrument. ...

I have played a lot more tuba than trombone. And I have to say that my direct impression and experience in community bands I've played in is that very few of the brass players either (a) realize that their valve circuits can/should be tuned individually or in aggregates, or (b) take the trouble to do this or view it as important. I tend to attribute this to the quality of their music education (particularly in early years) rather than simply to idiocy.

Ozzlefinch wrote: ↑Mon Nov 13, 2023 9:58 am I asked him why he didn't also tune his valves with the individual slides, and I got a blank stare. Turns out he didn't know about the OTHER tuning slides on the instrument. 3 minutes later he sounded worlds better.

I know that's not relevant to a trombone, but just a fun story I thought I would share.

For tuning, I think we on the trombone really have an advantage over all other brass players, because we can tune any note on the fly as we're constantly moving the biggest tuning slide in the world with our right hand.

One of the best things I ever learned about playing in tune was when I had a teacher who told me to just push my tuning slide in all the way and leave it there, and learn to play in tune that way. Really made me focus on the sound rather than mechanically playing each note where I understood the position to be. It got me away from the mechanics and made me focus completely on the pitch.

Trombones have lots of disadvantages, but one of our greatest advantages is being able to play every note perfectly in tune, every time, no matter where the pitch is.