Correct articulation.

[Asdasd02]

Hi Guys! I’am new here and i hope i can find a solution for my problem in this cool site

So i am 17 years old boy from belgium and i play on a trombone for 5 years now. I think i learned a bad articulation in the beggining because i pushed my tounge always to between my teeth so hard, so not like taa taa taa it was more like tat tat tat or daad daad dadd or something like that. So i try to forget this and start relearn the correct articulation.

So when we articulate on the trombone, our tounge is always on the same position and moving the same way, when we say taa taa or daa daa? Because when i try to play pieces like marcello f major sonata in the whole second movement is almost just 16th notes in allegro tempo. I try to play with you know lighter tounge and with more air, but i always want to push my tounge so hard like if i wanted to spit out like a reflex, i don’t really feel that the “air drives the tounge” feeling, maybe because i learned a very bad articulation in the beggining i don’t know. And i try to keep my tounge up but its always want to go down back to between my teeth. But when just blow air without the instrument it is not happening i can keep on the correct position and more easily. So any advice for this problem, or methods or exercises or lesson? Just because i like surely learn this in a good way. I can send some audio recording if it’s nevessary.

Thank you in advance for the answers!

[AndrewMeronek]

So when we articulate on the trombone, our tounge is always on the same position and moving the same way, when we say taa taa or daa daa?

No, I do not believe so:

The tongue arch can change depending on how our embouchure focuses air in different ranges.
The articulating part (whether the tip or somewhere else) needs to change if you want your articulation to change.
Other things will change depending on if you want to use "extended" tonguing techniques like a flutter tongue or doodle tongue.

Thank you in advance for the answers!

Welkom or Bienvenu!

[robcat2075]

So when we articulate on the trombone, our tounge is always on the same position and moving the same way, when we say taa taa or daa daa?

Tah...this is like ah you make when the doctor tells you to "say ah". I say that because if you are not a native English speaker, the vowels I try to spell may not mean to you what they mean to me.

Tah is the basic starting syllable that is good for notes around G

That syllable will need to morph to a tee as you ascend to a D above that.

Descending, the syllable morphs to taw by the time you get to G at the bottom of the staff.

Tow is for even lower notes


The practical effect of these different syllables is to vary the height of the back of the tongue. This alters the flow of the air over the tongue, the size of the oral cavity, and seems to have much to do with tone in different ranges.

Explaining it in syllables is easier than to tell someone to "vary the height of the back of your tongue"

Of course, that all very approximate direction. And I'm not telling to to shout into your horn. Your tongue makes these syllables without you making any vocal noises.

If in doubt about the English vowel sound, go to Google translate and listen to the English robot. The robot is pretty close except she somehow manages to make two syllables out of each one. You don't want the extra slide she tacks to the end.

syllables.png

[Asdasd02]

Yeah this sounds interesting.. i also noticed it is more easily can play 16th notes if the notes are not close to each other like if i play f and c , but if i play on one note the 16th notes are super hard so like in a 90pbm also. So i duing something wrong i think. Beacuse everyone around them don’t have this problem and i am struggeling with this since the beggining.

[LeTromboniste]

Hi Guys! I’am new here and i hope i can find a solution for my problem in this cool site

So i am 17 years old boy from belgium and i play on a trombone for 5 years now. I think i learned a bad articulation in the beggining because i pushed my tounge always to between my teeth so hard, so not like taa taa taa it was more like tat tat tat or daad daad dadd or something like that. So i try to forget this and start relearn the correct articulation.

So when we articulate on the trombone, our tounge is always on the same position and moving the same way, when we say taa taa or daa daa? Because when i try to play pieces like marcello f major sonata in the whole second movement is almost just 16th notes in allegro tempo. I try to play with you know lighter tounge and with more air, but i always want to push my tounge so hard like if i wanted to spit out like a reflex, i don’t really feel that the “air drives the tounge” feeling, maybe because i learned a very bad articulation in the beggining i don’t know. And i try to keep my tounge up but its always want to go down back to between my teeth. But when just blow air without the instrument it is not happening i can keep on the correct position and more easily. So any advice for this problem, or methods or exercises or lesson? Just because i like surely learn this in a good way. I can send some audio recording if it’s nevessary.

Thank you in advance for the answers!

What you describe with the 16th notes tells me that when you play faster, you lose control and your tongue reverts to your old muscle memory. That's normal because it's new. You need to build up the muscle memory of the new way of tonguing first so that you're able to stay in control. For me the best way to do that is to isolate it, and lots of repetition, starting slow and building it up. What I find really helps develop this muscle memory is also doing it away from the trombone. Just when walking to or from school, or when doing chores in the house, or whatever, you can just do the tonguing over and over again, at different speeds, like if you were speaking or whispering. Then you can also do the same but with the air.

To your question of whether the tongue always does the same, not really. As others have pointed out, the arch of the back of your tongue should change depending on the register and desired sound colour (independently from articulations) The exact place where your tongue hits the palate will also vary depending on how hard you want the articulation to be. My tongue always hits somewhere between the root of the front teeth and the edge of the palate ridge. It's a small distance, but where exactly within that zone varies depending on what I want.

One last thing, you say you've been trying to apply this tonguing to the fast notes in Marcello. Part of the problem here might be that there's a disconnect between what you want to do musically and what you're trying to do technically. You are likely making adjustments to try to reconcile those, and that's pushing you beyond your level of control. But in some cases (and I think in this case) it just can't be reconciled, no matter how much we try to adjust. Rapidly repeated single tonguing, no matter how lightly you actually articulate, is never going to sound musically light. I would say it's completely antethical to lightness. There is a place for fast single tonguing, and it's good to practice it and build up your comfort zone of how fast you can do it while staying in control, but I would choose to practice that using either purely non-musical exercises, or something that musically doesn't demand lightness and elegance. This lightness and elegance won't be achieved by how light you can repeat tah, but rather by using paired articulations, and generally more diversity in the tonguing (which I don't think you should try to do yet if you're working on resetting the very basics of how you articulate).

[Doug Elliott]

Something I've been developing recently as a teaching tool for this exact problem:
Use the letter N to practice articulating off the horn. It places your tongue in a better position than D or T, and uses a lot less motion.

Sing these, on the indicated pitches:
Na-na-na-na-Na------ for low Bb
Ne-ne-ne-ne-Neh---- for middle Bb
Ni-ni-ni-ni-Ni------ for F above the staff

Also, learn to multiple tongue this way, using "ng" for the other syllable. Smooth triple and double tonguing are very useful if you can't single tongue fast enough. And they help you to learn a better placement for your single tongue.

Learn triple tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-na-nga, Na-na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-ne-nga, Ne-ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ni-ngi, Ni-ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

Now learn double tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-nga, Ne-nga, Ne-nge, Ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

After you have worked on these while singing the right pitches, practice them silently, whispering with just a little bit of air.

[HornboneandVocals]

Something I've been developing recently as a teaching tool for this exact problem:
Use the letter N to practice articulating off the horn. It places your tongue in a better position than D or T, and uses a lot less motion.

Sing these, on the indicated pitches:
Na-na-na-na-Na------ for low Bb
Ne-ne-ne-ne-Neh---- for middle Bb
Ni-ni-ni-ni-Ni------ for F above the staff

Also, learn to multiple tongue this way, using "ng" for the other syllable. Smooth triple and double tonguing are very useful if you can't single tongue fast enough. And they help you to learn a better placement for your single tongue.

Learn triple tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-na-nga, Na-na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-ne-nga, Ne-ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ni-ngi, Ni-ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

Now learn double tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-nga, Ne-nga, Ne-nge, Ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

My teacher taught me this earlier this year and every time I try explain it to people they look at me like I’m crazy. I’ve never heard of anyone else explaining or implementing articulation this way, but it’s been a game changer. Thanks for validating my teacher and I

[Doug Elliott]

I mentioned it here a while back. Maybe your teacher got it from that.

Found it: Re: Tonguing Issues
Post Sun Jul 16, 2023 12:46 pm

The "blanks" issue may be related to the compensation you've developed for not tonguing.

Try singing, on a middle Bb or higher,
Nee-nee-nee-nee-neeeeee

That puts your tongue in a great position, and it's exactly how you should articulate. Duplicate that on the horn.

[baileyman]

Yes to the "n". It's what you get if you do the motion for "t" but time the note for the release of the "t" instead of the start. When the tongue lifts off. Timing at the start can be rough and percussive. "n" at the release can be light as a feather.

Incidentally, some people can bounce their single tongue on air pressure for a pretty fast no-effort single tongue. I haven't had enough success to use it. Lots of people use a slow multiple tongue instead of fast single. They can be done anywhere from staccato to smooth, too. Alan Kaplan, who used to single tongue eighths at 160bpm told me he now uses a slow double over 120bpm.

[LeTromboniste]

Something I've been developing recently as a teaching tool for this exact problem:
Use the letter N to practice articulating off the horn. It places your tongue in a better position than D or T, and uses a lot less motion.

Sing these, on the indicated pitches:
Na-na-na-na-Na------ for low Bb
Ne-ne-ne-ne-Neh---- for middle Bb
Ni-ni-ni-ni-Ni------ for F above the staff

Also, learn to multiple tongue this way, using "ng" for the other syllable. Smooth triple and double tonguing are very useful if you can't single tongue fast enough. And they help you to learn a better placement for your single tongue.

Learn triple tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-na-nga, Na-na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-ne-nga, Ne-ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ni-ngi, Ni-ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

Now learn double tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-nga, Ne-nga, Ne-nge, Ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

After you have worked on these while singing the right pitches, practice them silently, whispering with just a little bit of air.

That works great!

I don't know how much truth is in it, but there's a story about Kleinhammer hearing from Czech trombonists in the 60s that back home they were taught N and GN as the main consonants for tonguing.

[Kbiggs]

Something I've been developing recently as a teaching tool for this exact problem:
Use the letter N to practice articulating off the horn. It places your tongue in a better position than D or T, and uses a lot less motion.

Sing these, on the indicated pitches:
Na-na-na-na-Na------ for low Bb
Ne-ne-ne-ne-Neh---- for middle Bb
Ni-ni-ni-ni-Ni------ for F above the staff

Also, learn to multiple tongue this way, using "ng" for the other syllable. Smooth triple and double tonguing are very useful if you can't single tongue fast enough. And they help you to learn a better placement for your single tongue.

Learn triple tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-na-nga, Na-na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-ne-nga, Ne-ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ni-ngi, Ni-ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

Now learn double tongue this way, singing on those pitches:
Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na-nga, Na----- (sing on low Bb)
Ne-nga, Ne-nga, Ne-nge, Ne-nge, Neh---- (sing on middle Bb)
Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni-ngi, Ni------ (sing on F above the staff)

After you have worked on these while singing the right pitches, practice them silently, whispering with just a little bit of air.

This is gold. This is a great chart that also reminds me to use an appropriate vowel sound depending on register.

I started experimenting about 1 1/2 years ago using a softer “N” tongue for articulations, mainly on bass. I’ve only recently started applying it to my tenor playing. It has helped decrease chipped/cracked notes, and it helps with endurance especially in pieces that require lots of loud accented playing.

A question about triple tonguing: For years, I’ve played the softer consonant sound in the middle of a triplet sequence: “na-nga-na na-nga-na” (that is, “ta-ka-ta ta-ka-ta” or “da-ga-da da-ga-da” in old money). Are there any clear advantages to “na-na-nga na-na-nga”? For me, It’s a habit/pattern that is really difficult to change—putting the softer consonant sound at the end of the triplet group.

[Doug Elliott]

Some people learned it that way... It really doesn't make any difference, but it's always a good idea to learn triple first, then double. In all cases, try to make them sound equal so nobody will know what you're doing except you.

However... For me it's easier and cleaner to have the first two be the same if doing 4 notes in a row, instead of the last two being the same syllable - that slows me down.

[LeTromboniste]

Yeah I think what is more comfortable varies player to player. For me it was always ta-ka-ta. That's the one I could repeat for a long stretch without slowing down. But it's good to anyway get ta-ta-ka working as well, at least for single groups, as it tends to work better musically in some contexts, especially with a quick triplet pick-up to an accented downbeat.

[Kbiggs]

Yeah I think what is more comfortable varies player to player. For me it was always ta-ka-ta. That's the one I could repeat for a long stretch without slowing down. But it's good to anyway get ta-ta-ka working as well, at least for single groups, as it tends to work better musically in some contexts, especially with a quick triplet pick-up to an accented downbeat.

Yes, that’s the kind of situation where the weakness shows up: when the strong beat and the softer syllable are “misaligned.”