Embouchure worse after switching bass to tenor

[iampainter]

I played the King 3BF small bore for several years and developed a nice, symphonic tone in every register. Later I switched to a Yamaha bass trombone and had to completely change the embouchure (I wasn't doubling). Now I had to return it because it wasn't mine and I bought my own large bore tenor trombone. The problem is that I sound like when I started on the King which has a small bore and this is a large bore. It's worst in the lower registers, the upper seems nice and the range is okay. How to approach this?

[Doug Elliott]

What mouthpieces sizes did you use on all three horns?
When you get used to a big mouthpiece it's difficult or nearly impossible to go small again.

You can approach it from embouchure, mouthpiece, or both. I like to look at the whole picture.

[harrisonreed]

"Embouchure worse after switching bass to tenor"

Yes. It does that.

I think that the money range, and why you hire a bass trombonist, is for to play strong C's and B's below the staff, and to easily connect that to strong pedal notes, and to also connect them to decent playing in the staff. By connect, I mean that the it's no large shift, gap, or difficulty moving from the low C and B chromatically to pedal Bb, etc.

It seems like every damn bass part I am handed wants me to constantly go between low C and pedal Bb seamlessly, over and over again. I am no great bass player, and now having had to play it for over a year, I see that this is what the gig is.

Good luck doing it on even a 2G sized rim, with the hopes of doubling on tenor with a similar size. I think my solution (which is exactly that, to use a 2G rim on everything), is great for tenor and small bore and alto, but doesn't cut it on bass. That shift is ridiculous, into the pedal range.

So, I think the key range is a low Bb down to pedal C, below pedal Bb, and being able to to go seamlessly through all those notes. I think a 1G or 1.25G width is what you need for it, minimum, and for me that is beyond what I care to get my face used to. Way too big for me to play on tenor.

[baileyman]

Play some middle note. Pull the piece out and keep buzzing. Pull the piece off and keep freebuzzing. put the piece back on and keep buzzing. Put the piece back in and keep buzzing. Listen/feel if any helpful adjustment has happened.

[marccromme]

. I think my solution (which is exactly that, to use a 2G rim on everything), is great for tenor and small bore and alto, but doesn't cut it on bass. That shift is ridiculous, into the pedal range.
....

Why on earth would you like to play alto tenor and bass on same rim size? What advantages do you want to claim this way?

IMHO there is a very good reason in trying to find the mouthpiece size and volumen which fits each individual instrument, and get used to the different feel by practising the switch every day.

It works very well for me with different sizes like

Small bore Yamaha 48 or Bach 6 1/2

Large bore Laskey 59 MD or D

Bass GB 1 5/16 or 1 1/4

EB tuba DW Ultra 3

The feeling is different, yes, but the various sized instruments thank me with easy production and nice sound in the different money ranges. Plus nicely intune overtone series.

Not sure if it would work for you, but you could try to embrace the differences in size of instrument and mouthpiece as a positive thing rather than try to avoid then???

[harrisonreed]

. I think my solution (which is exactly that, to use a 2G rim on everything), is great for tenor and small bore and alto, but doesn't cut it on bass. That shift is ridiculous, into the pedal range.
....

Why on earth would you like to play alto tenor and bass on same rim size? What advantages do you want to claim this way?

I can play both higher and lower, and with a better sound, on tenor and alto trombone on that size rim than with a "conventional" size. I'll admit that a 2G rim is likely too small for me to play if I only did bass, but I'm not trying to become a full time bass player

This discussion has been hard many times, especially in regards to Joe Alessi. You're about 15 years late to when this was a continuous issue.

I have designed all the mouthpieces I use now, except for my Doug Elliott small bore mouthpiece, and had them made by James New, Bob Reeves, and Doug McVey. While I'm probably only 1% as competent as any of those four guys, my designs do play perfectly in tune across octaves, especially on alto (which is a very difficult thing to do). If you want to talk mouthpieces, I'm game, but I hope it will be more interesting than answering "why on earth would you" questions.

[OneTon]

I switched between tenor and bass going from one rehearsal to the next, and back the same day for 20 years. I used a Mount Vernon Bach 11C and a Bach 1 1/2G on a YSL-697Z and Duo-Gravis. I just made up my mind that I was going to do it. For 30 years before that I played small and large bore tenors with a Schilke 47. I got good sound on both and could have put out more volume than the conductor wanted. I am grateful to still be learning, to be better, and to be playing.

[imsevimse]

. I think my solution (which is exactly that, to use a 2G rim on everything), is great for tenor and small bore and alto, but doesn't cut it on bass. That shift is ridiculous, into the pedal range.
....

Why on earth would you like to play alto tenor and bass on same rim size? What advantages do you want to claim this way?

IMHO there is a very good reason in trying to find the mouthpiece size and volumen which fits each individual instrument, and get used to the different feel by practising the switch every day.

It works very well for me with different sizes like

Small bore Yamaha 48 or Bach 6 1/2

Large bore Laskey 59 MD or D

Bass GB 1 5/16 or 1 1/4

EB tuba DW Ultra 3

The feeling is different, yes, but the various sized instruments thank me with easy production and nice sound in the different money ranges. Plus nicely intune overtone series.

Not sure if it would work for you, but you could try to embrace the differences in size of instrument and mouthpiece as a positive thing rather than try to avoid then???

Thank you!

I thought I was the only one who change rim for different sizes of horns because I find that best

No, just kidding. I know many players here who do fine on different rim sizes. A lot of players double small tenor and bass and then they switch between 1 1/2G and 11C sizes.

It's true the ones who are primarily symphonic players or bass trombone players usually settle on bigger rims than I do on small bore sized horns but they usually also play a lower part than me. I have tried larger for some time because I liked that for solos. I played the Yamaha Nils Landgren signature mouthpiece for a few years and it's really great for solos but recently I rediscovered my Bach 11C when I was on lead and everything became easier and the sound also became more of a lead sound. The others like it better too.

I play a Bach 12E on alto, but would appreciate a Bach 11E if such a mouthpiece was available just to see if that would work. Bach 15E kind of works too but it starts to feel small there. I have a Bach 18 Mnt Vernon too if I want the feeling of too "small shoes".

We must except there are people who are strong players and can play big rims on everything and make that sound good. I can't do it but I accept other players can do it and they found that to be easier. It's two different paths.

/Tom

[EriKon]

. I think my solution (which is exactly that, to use a 2G rim on everything), is great for tenor and small bore and alto, but doesn't cut it on bass. That shift is ridiculous, into the pedal range.
....

Why on earth would you like to play alto tenor and bass on same rim size? What advantages do you want to claim this way?

Well, it does make switching between instruments easier for many people... There's a reason why Doug Elliott's system works as well as it does. Since I switched to use the same rim size on basically all my horns, I basically don't need any time to get used to a different instrument even when it was sitting in the corner for days/weeks. I didn't feel that way when I was using different mouthpieces (of different manufacturers in various sizes).

If you haven't tried this yet, I would be careful with "asking questions" the way you did.

[brassmedic]

Why on earth would you like to play alto tenor and bass on same rim size? What advantages do you want to claim this way?

Well, it does make switching between instruments easier for many people... There's a reason why Doug Elliott's system works as well as it does. Since I switched to use the same rim size on basically all my horns, I basically don't need any time to get used to a different instrument even when it was sitting in the corner for days/weeks. I didn't feel that way when I was using different mouthpieces (of different manufacturers in various sizes).

If you haven't tried this yet, I would be careful with "asking questions" the way you did.

Be careful asking questions. You have been warned.

[Olofson]

Many players do play the same size mouthpiece on alt, small, medium and large tenor. But the OP is talking about tenor and bass and the problem returning to tenor after playing bass. I that correct? Not many players use the same mouthpiece on tenor and bass for a very good reason. It most often does not work very good.

[Doug Elliott]

And I agree with that. I depends on how serious you want to be about bass, and how good your low range is on the tenor rim size.

Everyone who advocates using a different rim size on each horn says "you just have to practice all of them."
If you are playing correctly for your face and find the right rim size, it takes much less practice time to get to a high level on one rim, than on multiple rims.

[Matt K]

And it can work at a very high level. Jim Nova uses a 3G rim from soprano to contra I’ve heard him play bass love and I wouldn’t be able to tell he wasn’t a full time bass player, not just on his recordings.

[harrisonreed]

The issue with bass is the break/ shift to the pedals.for me, on my rim pedals and notes below the staff are no problem. Even the C two octaves below is not really an issue ... But! Bridging between the C below the staff and pedal Bb involves a shift for me. In solo rep for tenor, there is almost no moving lines that cross that line. Pedals generally stand alone, and any moving lines stay above that C.

In bass world, composers want you to go through that barrier in every other piece, over and over. I think, again this is just me, that the 1.055" rim I love so much is too small for that. A larger size would probably move that shift point lower, at the expense of the upper range.

[Mr412]

And it can work at a very high level. Jim Nova uses a 3G rim from soprano to contra I’ve heard him play bass love and I wouldn’t be able to tell he wasn’t a full time bass player, not just on his recordings.

I would wager, however, that he could tell. But since he plays at such a high level, no one else could and that's why he can "get away" with it. Maybe not so much for the rest of us. To get the very best out of tenor and bass, I must switch and that ain't easy, but doable.

[marccromme]

Harrisonreed, sorry my question came out the wrong way. Apologies, I was not meant to offend anybody. ...

[harrisonreed]

Harrisonreed, sorry my question came out the wrong way. Apologies, I was not meant to offend anybody. ...

It's all good! There are just two distinct ways of doing things, and using different rim diameters is one of them.

I know quite a few players who have no issues switching sizes and I don't know how they do it.

[marccromme]

..... thanks, I don't know how others do it, but I do practise the switch multiple times every day. I play a simple song or ballad somewhere in the middle of the staff on tenor with the best sound and ease I can produce on tenor, then switch to bass and repeat in the same key, with the best ease and bass sound, then switch to tuba and do it over again. Forth and back between instruments and therefore different rim sizes for ten minutes. Next day another song, another key, maybe a bit higher range, same instrument and rim switch for ten minutes. Third day a new song, in a lower range. After a couple of weeks, the switch gets easier and does not feel disturbing any more. Slowly expanding into higher and lower registers. ... or do the instrument switches with your favorite warmup exercises. ..

but after this digression back to the original OP question. ... iampainter. ... in which way did you need to change your embouchure when you started on bass trombone? Analysing this and reverting just a bit of it may give you the solution?

[Burgerbob]

Play it more.

People get accustomed to molding their playing around one instrument and mouthpiece. If that's all you do, then I don't think it's really a problem in the short term.

But if you can get beyond that, and just play well in a general sense? Each instrument you pick up is not really a huge barrier, and you can do small adjustments in the space of a few minutes.

Doug is good at teaching this, and it's really just about having solid fundamentals no matter what piece of metal is in your hands and attached to your face.

[Kbiggs]

I’m a doubler who uses different mouthpieces on different instruments: either a GB NY 5.5 or a DE 102G on large tenor, and a GB 1 5/16 on bass. I haven’t tried playing anything smaller than a 102-sized rim for many years, so if/when I buy a smaller tenor, I’ll have to either work at it, or ask for Doug’s help to put together a suitable mpc.

Like Marc Cromme described, it takes work and practice, and that seems as good a way to practice doubling as anything else. However, with proper-fitting equipment, it’s easier.

To the OP: Getting a lesson with Doug is probably the best suggestion right now.

Doug might not need this information, but it would be interesting to know how old you are, what sizes of mpcs you used on bass and now on tenor, how long you played bass, and how long you’ve been playing tenor.

[hyperbolica]

I switch from bass to tenor often in the same sitting. Sometimes bass to lead bone. I used to have a very difficult time with that, but increasing the size of the tenor rims really helped.

For example, I used to have difficulty switching from a Schilke 52 to a 6 1/2. That's not that big a switch. Now I switch between DE114 K8 and DE104 D3 instantaneously without needing to practice the switch. If you bring the smaller rim size up to where its more comfortable, switching from bass is less traumatic.

Granted I'm not a great bass bone player. I get a good sound but only get a pedal F on a good day. But my high range is pretty decent. I essentially have the same range no matter what horn /mpc combo I use. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing, but it only limits my bass playing, which I try to improve, but its ok with me.

[Kdanielsen]

I’m a classical tenor player mostly. I use the same 2g ish rim size for everything (alto, all tenors, euph, bass trp) except bass. On bass I play a Griego GP6, which is schilke 60 sized. I just can’t connect through the valve register and down to pedal f w/out the big mouthpiece.

[JeffBone44]

I also use a 2G sized rim on everything, except bass. Sometimes I'll try to practice with a 5G rim size on large bore tenor for a few days and it will feel good, but after about the 5th day it always falls apart.

[Kbiggs]

I also use a 2G sized rim on everything, except bass. Sometimes I'll try to practice with a 5G rim size on large bore tenor for a few days and it will feel good, but after about the 5th day it always falls apart.

There’s got to be a name for that. I find something similar when I try to play a small-bore horn or a mpc smaller than about 1.02”. The first day is always rough, trying to maintain that focus and embouchure firmness/readiness/tension so that I make a sound like a trombone. The next few days are usually okay. After about 5-7 days, it sounds awful, either way too bright, too dark, loss of range/flexibility.

Time to go practice… or buy another mouthpiece!!

[JeffBone44]

I also use a 2G sized rim on everything, except bass. Sometimes I'll try to practice with a 5G rim size on large bore tenor for a few days and it will feel good, but after about the 5th day it always falls apart.

There’s got to be a name for that. I find something similar when I try to play a small-bore horn or a mpc smaller than about 1.02”. The first day is always rough, trying to maintain that focus and embouchure firmness/readiness/tension so that I make a sound like a trombone. The next few days are usually okay. After about 5-7 days, it sounds awful, either way too bright, too dark, loss of range/flexibility.

Time to go practice… or buy another mouthpiece!!

Yup, this exactly! My ideal size is XT105 in DE mouthpieces. Once in a while if I play lead I will use a 104, but that's rare now. Even the 104/3G size rims feel too constricting to me now. After a couple years of playing bass trombone, the 105 feels just right on tenor.