TromboneChat

Looking for general recommendations for professional quality alto trombone. I am new to this forum and have not figured out how to search. Please forgive me and/or direct me to previous posts.

I love my Conn 36H, but there are purists here who prefer German brands. Others seem to prefer altos without Bb attachments.

If you have a lot of disposable income, Shires, Edwards and (I think) Rath make them.

I would steer clear of the Bach 39; it has a reputation of being a bit quirky.

https://www.jayfriedman.net/alto-retort/

Of course, the Rath and the Shires are very expensive alto trombones. They might not be appropriate for the budget of a player who is starting out on the instrument. For those players, I strongly suggest that they play on a small mouthpiece and with the tuning slide pushed all the way in. This works well. (I now play on a Hammond Design 12S mouthpiece that I have used for the past five years.) I would start out with those conditions on any alto trombone with crook tuning. From my experience of trying several instruments, I think that the best alto in that configuration is the old Yamaha 671. There are many used ones out there. They come up for sale regularly. The current 871 alto from Yamaha had exactly the same intonation quirks that my 671 had. That is quite a testament to Yamaha’s manufacturing quality and consistency, but it has a nickel slide. The sound of the 871 is not as sweet as the sound of the 671 with its brass slide. The new trombone that plays and sounds most like the Yamaha 671 is the Courtois. The only German alto that I played extensively was the Throja. It is very well made, but it has the same limitations that the other altos have when tuned in the crook.

If the budget allows it, I think that the alto trombones with the tuning in the slide are a vast improvement over the ones with crook tuning. To my knowledge, the altos that are built with this feature are the Rath, Shires, and the Austrian Shagerl.

The whole article is worth reading. I am pleased with my 671. I haven't noticed it being flat overall. But the slide is so short, I do fear 7th position.

It's not easy to recommend an alto right away, since altos are inherently quirky in tone shaping, intonation and handling compared to a tenor.

An alto that suits one player very well, could be totally wrong with another, so if you are to invest in a professional alto, I strongly suggest you to take some time to try as many as you can. Borrow, loan on trial from shops or visit a manufacturer.

A good, professional, alto is a quite expensive investment, and for your money's sake I'd recommend to try before buying.

Rath, Shires, M&W, Leuchter, Thein, Yamaha, B&S, Courtois, Lätszch, are some instrument builders that make altos worthy of checking out.

Honestly, search is best done in Google for non-classifieds things (we don't expose Classifieds to non-members for bot reasons). But if you search

alto trombone site:trombonechat.com

You'll get more threads than you know what to do with lol

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:20 pm https://www.jayfriedman.net/alto-retort/

This is a big reason why I cut my 36H tuning slide down. You play pushed in all the way and use the slide to tune. It plays wonderfully.

Bonus, with the Bb attachment, you don't need to play in 7th position on the alto. Ever.

I find that the Shires and Rath altos sound wonderful, but are overall too long. Even with the mechanism in all the way, you're like just in tune with a bit of room in first. If you tune with the slide all the way closed, it makes a bit more sense (except that tuning Eb to the bumpers doesn't make sense to begin with).

The Rath and Shires slides are also heavy.

So, to me, the best of both worlds is the 36H, with the legs shortened. You still have TIS/TIH, but it weighs nothing. And you have the Bb attachment for 7th, even though you still technically have a true 7th position.

A Butler would tempt me, though probably a little pricey.

Edwards (no longer in production) and Adams are two more that I would add to the list. They are both nice sounding horns that are pretty user-friendly in terms of a predictable overtone series and a design where the proportions on the horns feel similar to tenor trombones (bell position, etc.) The Adams are very similar to the old Glassel altos - they bought his tooling and designs when he retired. I loved a sterling silver Adams that I tried at the ITF in SLC last summer.

Jim Scott

The Adams altos are great. Second that recommendation to check out. I owned one for a couple years, but found a Rath that just works better for me.

Yamaha Altos! you get what you get, you don't get upset.

Sonas Aural, 100% customizable to your liking.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2024 7:52 pm A Butler would tempt me, though probably a little pricey.

Are they making altos now? I don't see it listed on their site

Don't want to put words in his mouth but I think he meant, if it was offered he'd want one. Major upgrade from the ol' alto pBone, eh Tim?

Ahhh! That makes sense.

I'm kicking myself for not picking up an Edwards alto when they were $2400. Or the pre-owned one I played at Dillon Music around 10 years ago. I was switching careers and thought it was kind of silly to own an alto. I mean, to be fair, it is kind of silly for me to own an alto. But wow did it play well and didn't have the TIS mechanism.

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 8:23 am Ahhh! That makes sense.

I'm kicking myself for not picking up an Edwards alto when they were $2400. Or the pre-owned one I played at Dillon Music around 10 years ago. I was switching careers and thought it was kind of silly to own an alto. I mean, to be fair, it is kind of silly for me to own an alto. But wow did it play well and didn't have the TIS mechanism.

I bought mine new for $2000 - that was a while ago! Very nice blowing horns, with a pretty easy to figure out overtone series. Mine is very lightweight - all yellow brass with a thin, resonant bell. It sings, and has a nice high "F" for the Beethoven 5th (unless the "owner/operator" is out of shape!).

Jim Scott

Does the Edwards also have the wicked sharp Db partial between Bb4 and Eb5? That is the one thing I've never found, even the Shires, is an alto that is closer to tenor on that partial.

Luckily you only need that one for like 3 notes, but still.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Jan 31, 2024 4:23 pm Does the Edwards also have the wicked sharp Db partial between Bb4 and Eb5? That is the one thing I've never found, even the Shires, is an alto that is closer to tenor on that partial.

Luckily you only need that one for like 3 notes, but still.

On german style altos the Db is in tune in first! Edwards nearly finished two new alto models a few years ago. I hope they actually finish them. The one i tested at a show felt great.

The Shires Q 35 is a consistent good sounding alto imo.

On my Edwards alto, that D flat partial sits pretty close to how the comparable A flat partial feels on a tenor. The D flat is not useable in 1st, but C and B natural have a comparable relation to 2nd and 3rd positions as G and F sharp do on my tenor.

Jim Scott

I got a 36H Conn in 2012 as my first alto. I am not a Conn guy. But with the valve I was able to learn the crazy part of alto intonation and playing. And the horn held its value. I kept it is perfect shape and felt good selling it. Bought a new German horn with a trill valve and sterling silver bell. I have fallen quite hard for the new mistress.


https://youtu.be/voyh4Q4LzIk?si=Y1N5PZzJ0H6uZHhF

I would say something about alto specs in general: I think what really make difference in choice is knowing what specs on the alto work for you. I mean, in alto's land, there are so much differences beetwen horns: you should consider materials, bore of the instrument (we call all instruments "alto" but almost every horn has different bore), bell dimensions, single bore or dual bore slide, bell position, mouthpiece rims! And we can continue... I had different instruments, also professional, and I spent years play them. Over time, I simply understood that nichel single bore slide works best for me, because sound, easy and so on. My suggest is: try to understand what specs fit your playing and find horn wich includes all of them!

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 1:07 pm My suggest is: try to understand what specs fit your playing and find horn wich includes all of them!

This can take 10+ years. On tenor even. Now try to do it on a secondary or tertiary instrument. Especially of you have a bogus mouthpiece you insist on using.

I really think it's the mouthpiece that will hold most new alto players back. 5G small shank, 6.5AL, 12C. You name it, people be playing some weird stuff on alto. It either doesn't fit their face, or it's so big it's like playing a Contra piece on tenor, or the shank/backbore puts the tuning so far out of whack that the player blames the instrument. After all, the 6.5 worked on tenor .... !

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 2:23 pm

Danitrb wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 1:07 pm My suggest is: try to understand what specs fit your playing and find horn wich includes all of them!

This can take 10+ years. On tenor even. Now try to do it on a secondary or tertiary instrument. Especially of you have a bogus mouthpiece you insist on using.

I really think it's the mouthpiece that will hold most new alto players back. 5G small shank, 6.5AL, 12C. You name it, people be playing some weird stuff on alto. It either doesn't fit their face, or it's so big it's like playing a Contra piece on tenor, or the shank/backbore puts the tuning so far out of whack that the player blames the instrument. After all, the 6.5 worked on tenor .... !

I think there are no shortcuts, we can have clear idea only by trying things, and yes this is take time, but is best solution for all of us. We shouldn't play horn, only because another person play it. We need to understand what work for us. As said, there are many aspects to consider, and all of them are important. I can suggest horns, because they are so popular, but doesn't mean are right fit for all. In my case these "popular" horn don't work!

Yep, it's the journey!

I had the cheaper JP alto for a while and even sort of learned to play it decently. But unless you are a pro playing principal in an orchestra, there isn’t much opportunity to perform on one. I played it in public a grand total of once with a brass choir and ended up selling it. Maybe when I retire, I’ll try again.

Learning to play alto is no different than learning calligraphy with your non writing hand.

Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 4:14 pm I had the cheaper JP alto for a while and even sort of learned to play it decently. But unless you are a pro playing principal in an orchestra, there isn’t much opportunity to perform on one. I played it in public a grand total of once with a brass choir and ended up selling it. Maybe when I retire, I’ll try again.

I’m not a pro orchestral trombone but with limited alto experience, I played the Rhenish, Magic Flute, and in a week will do Brahms 1. I figure I should keep working at it because sooner or later I will do something like a Mozart Requiem.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 6:26 pm I’m not a pro orchestral trombone but with limited alto experience, I played the Rhenish, Magic Flute, and in a week will do Brahms 1. I figure I should keep working at it because sooner or later I will do something like a Mozart Requiem.

Rod,

You're lucky to play in such an orchestra. Ours plays too many "stars of the future" concerts with teen-age virtuosos playing violin and piano concertos.
I did get to play the Mozart Requiem a few years ago - but alas had no alto trombone (nor do I know how to play it). Needless to say I could have used one (or at least more practice on my small tenor) - I "misplayed" a lot of high notes!

Brahms 1 upcoming this season, but now I'll be playing Trombone 2.
I'm getting pretty good at counting rests / laying out of movements or entire pieces!

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:21 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 6:26 pm I’m not a pro orchestral trombone but with limited alto experience, I played the Rhenish, Magic Flute, and in a week will do Brahms 1. I figure I should keep working at it because sooner or later I will do something like a Mozart Requiem.

Rod,

You're lucky to play in such an orchestra. Ours plays too many "stars of the future" concerts with teen-age virtuosos playing violin and piano concertos.
I did get to play the Mozart Requiem a few years ago - but alas had no alto trombone (nor do I know how to play it). Needless to say I could have used one (or at least more practice on my small tenor) - I "misplayed" a lot of high notes!

Brahms 1 upcoming this season, but now I'll be playing Trombone 2.
I'm getting pretty good at counting rests / laying out of movements or entire pieces!

Just a typical community orchestra.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:48 pm

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 04, 2024 8:21 pm

Rod,

You're lucky to play in such an orchestra. Ours plays too many "stars of the future" concerts with teen-age virtuosos playing violin and piano concertos.
I did get to play the Mozart Requiem a few years ago - but alas had no alto trombone (nor do I know how to play it). Needless to say I could have used one (or at least more practice on my small tenor) - I "misplayed" a lot of high notes!

Brahms 1 upcoming this season, but now I'll be playing Trombone 2.
I'm getting pretty good at counting rests / laying out of movements or entire pieces!

Just a typical community orchestra.

I’m a fellow amateur playing in community orchestra and other groups. I’ve had plenty of alto opportunities, e.g. Beethoven 9 (didn’t have one then so played it on tenor), Brahms 1, Mozart Mass in the orchestra and selected 1st trombone parts in a 10-piece brass group (Bach Brandenburg Concerto, Zadok etc.). Sometimes I’ve played the French horn parts in quintet also.

I would say our orchestra is decent but probably not more ambitious than other similar ones.

I play a 36H with a Yamaha 48A mouthpiece and couldn’t be happier with it. I find the valve to be quite useful when playing the odd horn part or two, they can go quite low. Before that I had a Yamaha 671, also a comfortable horn for me as a mainly tenor player. I don’t practice alto much in my general routine but can get up to speed on it in a couple of days if necessary.

I play some alto in good amateur and/or semi-professional settings.
Over the years I have come to the conclusion that it takes too much adjustment for me to comfortably play my kind of small Voigt alto. So I sold it a few months ago and fully moved to a Kanstul and Conn 35h which both feel much more natural to me reg how they respond, sound and blow. This ways it is much easier to just pick up and play the alto. Still with Rhenish coming up I am trying to practice alto on a daily basis right now.

If I would by a new one today with unlimited funds and time to try out instruments, I would probably try the Adams, Leuchter, Shires and a few of the larger German altos.

Also as others mentioned before it's essential to fine-tune your mouthpiece. It could absolutely possible that for some players an untypical mouthpiece works best. But for most, a shallow cup, small throat and backbore is certainly best. It might be smaller than you initially think. Some combine this with a wider cup diameter, I personally prefer a smaller cup diameter.

I really like the Rath R11Z myself, my only complaint is it's very narrow physically. But I wanted to give an honorable mention to the M&W 129 which I think has a really great alto sound.

Out of the altos I've tried:

- Shires custom with red bell - Nice player of course. It felt pretty rigid though, like I couldn't steer the sound where I wanted it to. I spent a few weeks with this horn and it just stayed locked into its one sound.
- Shires custom with yellow bell and Bb valve - I liked this one a lot more, it was lovely.
- Shires Q35 - Just solid all around. I liked the Q I tried a little better than the red bell custom I spent a few weeks with.
- Rath R11K w/Bb valve - I tried this one back to back with the Shires w/Bb valve, and I have to admit, they felt 100% identical. It was like it was the same horn with a different stamp on the bell. Not that I minded because they both played wonderfully, but it was definitely odd.
- Edwards red bell/tuning in bell - Big-playing alto, was a fun blow. Probably not what I would choose, but it was definitely a nice player.
- Laetzsch SL-710 - An exquisite player. Extremely light, with the most colorful sound out of any alto I've played.
- Yamaha YSL-671 - Like the Q35, just solid all around. No surprises or issues. I'd give the edge to the Q though.
- Conn 36H - Played great, and those who heard me play it said they loved how I sounded on it more than the Shires or Rath.
- Bach 39 - Definitely lives up to its quirky reputation, but has a nice light alto sound.
- Wessex PE523 - I've talked at length about this alto in the past on here...it was 90% as good as the Shires or Rath for $800. I'm still sad they discontinued it so quickly before I could buy one, and then never released the follow-up model with a valve they told me they were developing. Rare as hen's teeth now, I'm guessing they only sold a handful.
- B&S Erde Prototype - I've talked even more at length about this one. Easily my favorite alto I've ever played. .547 bore, Bb valve, actually matches a modern orchestral tenor and bass in sound and projection in a way that no other alto comes close to. Also a fabulous solo instrument...just sublime in every way. But, it got axed right before it started production.
- Everyone's favorite Chinese Slokar clone - I had a stock nickel Selman to learn alto, and it was totally fine. Most noticeable quirk was 2nd partial Eb being very sharp, but that was kind of it. Sounded and played decent otherwise, good enough to learn alto with and play the occasional Schubert Unfinished on.

I would like to add to the discussion, the balance between instrument and mouthpiece. I don't particularly like altos with dual bore slide, standard slide, yellow or gold, because with the mouthpiece I use (essentially 4G rim on 12C cup), they sound a lot like a small tenor. I find more difficult find the sound that's in my head with this kind of equipment. At the same time I don't want to give up the mouthpiece, because small rims don't work for me. So my ideal compromise, is to keep the mouthpiece I like, and have an instrument on the small side, yellow bell and single bore nickel slide, this gets me closer to the sound I want from an alto. Surely if you play a mouthpiece with a small rim, this can give you an appropriate sound even if you play one of the instruments I mentioned (like Shires or Yamaha). I also believe that a small rim like 7, 11, 12, 15 Bach necessarily gives a smaller and more focused sound, compared to large rims even if they have shallow cups.

Doug Elliott has an alto shank that lets you use the rim of your choice. I use it with a C cup and a 104 rim. With the Rhenish I cheated a bit and used an 11C. I liked the sound and a little bit of security on that Eb, but the convenience of using the same rim on most of my horns is nice.