TromboneChat

What’s the difference?

Bass vs treble clef, transposing vs non-transposing?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:16 pm What’s the difference?

Bass vs treble clef, transposing vs non-transposing?

Construction, proportions, sometimes pitch (bass trumpets can be in a variety of pitches, Bb yes but also C, F, Eb...), history, repertoire, and yes notation (clef and transposition). They're two different instruments.

I was listening to Bob Brookmeyer and Chet Baker on the drive home (Chet Baker Sextet). Hard to tell them apart sometimes.

Totally different horns. But they can be played in similar ways.

It's a case of "I know it when I see it". I honestly don't think there's any one distinguishing characteristic that differentiates between the two 100% of the time.

Bass trumpets come in many keys (Bb, C, F, Eb, etc.), but so do valve trombones (though Eb alto valve trombones are pretty rare).

Valve trombones are normally shaped, well, like slide trombones, while bass trumpets are normally shaped like trumpets - but then there are "compact" valve trombones that are shaped more like a trumpet.

I know of at least one case where a company (Getzen) made a bass trumpet and a valve trombone that shared a lot of the same components - basically the same instrument, but wrapped differently. Admittedly, the Getzen isn't a "good" bass trumpet, but that wasn't part of the question.

Things get even more muddled if you consider the "beer hall" bass trumpet as well as the orchestral type.

As for the music? Yes, bass trumpet parts are normally written in treble clef - but there are genres of music that normally use a valve trombone reading treble clef music.

There are many types of bass trumpet.

The ones that are perhaps the closest to valve trombone is American poston-valved ones. Similar bore size, sometimes even the same valve cluster. Just the bell taper and overall shape are different.

The furthest may be the beer hall-type Central and Eastern European ones, like the K&H Bb or the Schagerl Wunderhorn. Rotary valve, much more conical, mainly in Bb, and sometimes larger bore.

Then lastly something in-between and can be considered the closest to original, the C orchestral bass trumpet. Still with rotor but with smaller bore.

Different tapers, different sound, different purpose...but they are obviously not too far apart. Still, a proper orchestral bass trumpet has a bright, piercing sound that is unmistakably a trumpet and not a trombone.

Here's a quick sound comparison I did of a Bb rotary narrow-bore orchestral bass trumpet, a flugabone (valve trombone wrapped like a trumpet), and a bright small bore tenor trombone setup:

Well, "a Bb rotary narrow-bore orchestral bass trumpet" makes a fine valve trombone!

Cy Touff and Kent Larsen woulda loved it, maybe Bob Enevoldsen, too.

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:20 pm The ones that are perhaps the closest to valve trombone is American poston-valved ones. Similar bore size, sometimes even the same valve cluster. Just the bell taper and overall shape are different.

Sometimes not even the bell taper is different. The Bach 34 trombone bell and the Bach bass trumpet bell were supposed to be (the 34 is defunct) spun on the same mandrel.

Dennis wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:40 pm

sirisobhakya wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:20 pm The ones that are perhaps the closest to valve trombone is American poston-valved ones. Similar bore size, sometimes even the same valve cluster. Just the bell taper and overall shape are different.

Sometimes not even the bell taper is different. The Bach 34 trombone bell and the Bach bass trumpet bell were supposed to be (the 34 is defunct) spun on the same mandrel.

Yes, but the rest of the tapers are different.

Finetales wrote: ↑Sat Feb 10, 2024 10:50 pm Different tapers, different sound, different purpose...but they are obviously not too far apart. Still, a proper orchestral bass trumpet has a bright, piercing sound that is unmistakably a trumpet and not a trombone.

Here's a quick sound comparison I did of a Bb rotary narrow-bore orchestral bass trumpet, a flugabone (valve trombone wrapped like a trumpet), and a bright small bore tenor trombone setup:

Thank you for this side by side comparison!