Conn 70H vs. King Duo Gravis Silversonic vs. Bach 50b2

[TheConnsequence]

What is your horn of choice and why?

[hyperbolica]

70h is the choice for the classic George Roberts Mr. Trombone kind of sound, but it's a single valve TIS model, which turns some people off. Duo Gravis is dependent and stock has over/under levers, and a smaller bore through the valves. Silver bell is heavy and more expensive. The Bach is the most mainstream but is still dependent.

I have owned all 3, and would probably prefer the Duo Gravis as long as it had split levers. I prefer the smaller end of the spectrum for basses.

[Mertelstein]

Hated the Bach, but that's more down to a personal dislike of Bachs in general rather than any inherent defect. Just incredibly heavy (and I felt less versatile for it).

I've stuck my thoughts on the Silversonic on your other thread, but again I feel limited to jazz. The DG brass bell on the other hand, if I still had it, would be hands down my favourite.

I've never had the fortune to play on a 70H, but my current horn of choice is a 73H. It's in the process of being tweaked (I've got a few posts on this forum relating to my journey, and some users have been spectacularly helpful on that). Now it's nearer a preferred set-up for me, it's almost always the one I reach for most.

[GabrielRice]

This is like comparing apples and oranges and pork chops.

The Conn 70H is a beautiful instrument with limited usefulness at this point in history. I own one and love it. I play it maybe 2 or 3 times a year when I'm playing older repertoire in a small orchestra with a single bass trombone part or an alto trombone at the top of the section, usually with a chorus. Mozart Requiem is what I use it for most often, followed by Beethoven 9.

The Duo Gravis Silversonic is a great instrument for many styles of commercial/jazz playing. It would not work well in any orchestra setting where I play. It would be fun to own one, but I honestly have no use for it.

If I had to pick only one of these it would be a good Bach 50B2. I could use it pretty much anywhere, even if it's not necessarily ideal everywhere.

[Burgerbob]

Those are three of the most different horns possible.

The 6B is probably easiest to play in some ways, the 70H the most difficult.

Like Gabe, I would take a 50B2 over either one due to my own preferences.

[Mertelstein]

I really hope I made it clear my dislike of the Bach was entirely a personal one, and MY problem - nothing to do with the horns themselves. It's perfectly possible you'd prefer it - two rather excellent and considerably better players than me, Aidan and Gabe, have subsequently commented above on them being their preferred instrument. I played on old one and it never really worked for me; nor did a Bach 36 or a 42 on tenor. I've always been a Conn or King man depending on the situation.

I wondered if it was a UK thing, given the popularity of tenor Conns in symphonic settings when I was growing up (and still continuing to some extent today). But I don't think there was ever the "dominance" of one type of bass trombone to the extent of the 8H / 88H dominance in the tenors. Probably the Bach 50 was the closest you got, but I'll let wiser people than me opine on that.

[harrisonreed]

It's okay to not like Bach. Bachs take a different approach, I think.

[GabrielRice]

I wondered if it was a UK thing, given the popularity of tenor Conns in symphonic settings when I was growing up (and still continuing to some extent today). But I don't think there was ever the "dominance" of one type of bass trombone to the extent of the 8H / 88H dominance in the tenors. Probably the Bach 50 was the closest you got, but I'll let wiser people than me opine on that.

The closest back in the day was probably actually Holton, with Ray Premru playing one in the Philharmonia and Frank Mathison playing one in the LSO. But others would know better than I.

Ray told me he bought a 50B with gold brass bell and lightweight slide at one point, and his Philharmonia section asked him to go back to the Holton because they felt it worked better with their Conns.

[sf105]

To muddy the waters, I think there's a difference between pre- and post-war 70Hs. I lucked out on a pre-war and, although it's pretty heavy, I just keep coming back to it--and not just for classical rep.

The DG-SS is a great commercial horn. Everything just pops out, although the grip is hard work.

I used to have a pretty good Bach 50 but I just prefer the Conn school on a bass.

[ithinknot]

To muddy the waters, I think there's a difference between pre- and post-war 70Hs. I lucked out on a pre-war and, although it's pretty heavy, I just keep coming back to it--and not just for classical rep.

How would you characterise the difference?

I've only had one, 1955, final year of production. It was... not easy. It's in Scotland now, with someone who can actually play it.

But Bachs and Holtons basically make sense to me, and Conns don't.

That said, I now have a 60H that I'm getting to know. It still doesn't feel entirely obvious in the way that the other school does, but it's also a million times easier to play than the 70H. From a pedagogical point of view, it's incredibly easy, in that things either do, or absolutely don't, work - it's not forgiving, but it's 100% clear what it wants from you.

[ithinknot]

To the OP's question: if it's just desert island ideas, fair enough, but how/where/why is *this* the choice?

Of the four options, I'd keep the $5k in cash.

[Mertelstein]

Rather like ithinknot, I was thinking about why limiting yourself to those specific horns? Also really interesting to read about the Holtons. I don’t think I’ve ever played one, though I have vague memories of borrowing a bass trombone from a local brass band when I was younger and it having the “bar” type trigger arrangement (which I think was Holton?). I seem to remember everyone being quite disparaging about them when I was growing up, which is probably down to the attitudes of my fellow teenagers wanting the next biggest and best thing rather than to do with actual quality…

[blast]

To muddy the waters, I think there's a difference between pre- and post-war 70Hs. I lucked out on a pre-war and, although it's pretty heavy, I just keep coming back to it--and not just for classical rep.

How would you characterise the difference?

I've only had one, 1955, final year of production. It was... not easy. It's in Scotland now, with someone who can actually play it.

But Bachs and Holtons basically make sense to me, and Conns don't.

That said, I now have a 60H that I'm getting to know. It still doesn't feel entirely obvious in the way that the other school does, but it's also a million times easier to play than the 70H. From a pedagogical point of view, it's incredibly easy, in that things either do, or absolutely don't, work - it's not forgiving, but it's 100% clear what it wants from you.

I am that person in Scotland...though my ability to play said 70H is limited by it's liking for Bach 2G size mouthpieces and my lack of comfort with such things. There is a player in a pro orchestra who is coming to look at it as he is a confirmed 2G man. I have a much modified 1934 70H that plays very differently, as does Gabes 70H, which I have played. Hard to generalise with those Conns. I've owned several Bachs and DG's over the years...all very different. Oh, and I blew that Bach 50 of Premru's. It was okay, but no more. I know where it is as well. Steve's Freeman's DG is a monster.
Trombones are not washing machines...try before you buy....

[2bobone]

The reason that I began an association with TromboneChat years ago was that I stumbled across a reference about why I supposedly switched from my Conn 70Hs to a King Duo Gravis SS. It said that it was a demand by the then conductor of the NSO but the truth of the matter was that I needed to keep up with the immensely powerful playing of our principal trombone, John Marcellus. John was the most exciting and powerful player I'd ever encountered and I have deep and abiding respect for the man and his incredible talent. The Conn 70H instruments that I owned at the time : a 70H with an added Reynolds double trigger setup [F & E], a standard single valve 70H with detachable leadpipe, a triple-belled "Coffey" model 70H and a 1930's 70H with a knob to switch the valve from F to E. They ALL were wonderful horns but none of them could hold together at high dynamics like the DG SS. The DG had an incredible "presence" at any dynamic and I witnessed that trait when hearing other players who chose the DG as their daily driver. I personally love the DG with its "stacked" triggers and think that the collaboration of Alan Raph and Georg McCracken produced one of the finest bass trombones out there. To me, it has the best traits of the Conn instruments and then built upon that already solid foundation. I presently own a Butler carbon fiber C-12 for its geezer-friendly weight factor but it sits on a stand right next to my DG, my all time favorite. Every time I spend a few minutes on the DG I am reminded at why I made the switch in the 1970s. YMMV !

[sf105]

As Blast says, everyone has their sound. The trick is to find the horn that matches it the best.

[gbedinger]

This thread is one of those rare gems of collective wisdom that reminds me why I joined the forum and its predecessor many years ago. Thank you to all who have contributed.