TromboneChat

Interesting talk about playing anatomy:

The Diaphragm in Brass Playing by Dr. Larry Miller, M.D.


No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.

„In our literature search, in my discussions with emminent neurologists, no one has been able to find any evidence anatomically, of voluntary control of the diaphragm. It’s an involuntary muscle. And I use the term (muscle) loosely.“

„It’s not under conscious control.“

„It (the diaphragm) moves in response to the pressure changes on either side and around it.“

And then he shows an actual diaphragm, the connecting muscles and tendons and a transparent surface of the central tendon.

Enjoy!

This is really neat!

I knew the whole "diaphragm" stuff in brass pedagogy was pretty much all wrong, but this lecture has a lot of detail I didn't know.

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:06 pm No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.

Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:39 pm

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:06 pm No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.

Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.

I'll take a try at answering that.....with respect. am a trombone player, but also a classical tenor vocalist. I have studied breathing with more people than I would care to mention and have spent years studying breath and its relation to sound, and the mechanics involved. I continue to learn, but my understanding is that the diaphragm's work is done once you take in a breath, and holding the breath is mainly the work of the intercostal muscles (assuming the vocal folds are open versus blocking the air flow.).

I think the point is that any conscious control of breathing is accomlished by other groups of muscles applying force in one direction or another. The diaphragm itself is reserved for keeping you alive.

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/b ... -diaphragm

Its´s funny and strange, all the myths about the diaphragm.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:39 pm

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:06 pm No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.

Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.

Proof, you didn't watch the film. So I see no need to answer, inasmuch as a trumpet playing MD did.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 11:05 pm I think the point is that any conscious control of breathing is accomlished by other groups of muscles applying force in one direction or another. The diaphragm itself is reserved for keeping you alive.

As the Dr. explained it, the diaphragm is there to separate the digestive tract from the lungs. Can you live without it? I've never had that question asked, but ... ask a Dr. Looking at the photographs he used, that's all you see. It doesn't initiate anything, doesn't pull or push anything. It keeps things tidy. What would happen if it were removed? Ask the dude who contributed his, that he could show a diaphragm, what it's made of.

Olofson wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:56 am https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/b ... -diaphragm

Its´s funny and strange, all the myths about the diaphragm.

Yes, and as the good doctor says, some are still being propagated by members of the medical community, operating with out-dated, proven wrong information.

Wittgenstein ladder strikes again.
"Breath with your diaphragm" is a teaching simplification.
Doesn't matter that it is wrong and misleading and causes the kind of disconnect in this thread.
It is SO much simpler to make that four word exhortation than to explain the piston effect of the abdominal muscles against the viscera interacting with the intercostal muscles... the exact situation where a Wittgenstein ladder comes into play.

For me these four words go into the same bin as "blow it to the back of the room."

I wish we could come up with some simplifications that could be BUILT UPON, rather than needing to be overturned before the next level of progress can start. Not likely, though...

"Can you live without it? I've never had that question asked, "

having dealt with animals with traumatic diaphragmatic hernias (rupture) where repair wasn't feasible, the important thing was to make sure the hole was large enough that organs would not become trapped. Limited numbers. But the dogs did fine after surgery.

vetsurginc wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 5:42 am "Can you live without it? I've never had that question asked, "

having dealt with animals with traumatic diaphragmatic hernias (rupture) where repair wasn't feasible, the important thing was to make sure the hole was large enough that organs would not become trapped. Limited numbers. But the dogs did fine after surgery.

Interesting, thanks. I also am a retired canine behavior consultant (specialty fear and so-called fear aggression, which in and of itself also is usually a misnomer), so this wouldn't necessarily help my work with dogs, but still, good to know. Thanks!

Darn good video, always wondered why abs start to swell with blood after practicing for a few hours. So you can't access and or control the diaphragm, even if you wanted to. It acts like plenum between to cavities. Soooo the muscles you want to train are on top of the rib cage?!

Olofson wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:56 am https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/b ... -diaphragm

Its´s funny and strange, all the myths about the diaphragm.

Much less the few people that actually know where it's and looks like!

The misconception is the fact that it's commonly referred to as a muscle when it's really just a membrane.
The actual "diaphragm" muscle is the abs, combined with everything around the rib cage.

In practical terms it's all just how you breathe... everybody knows how to breathe, you do it 24 hours a day. Brass playing isn't really that much different until you get into the high range on trumpet.

The same goes for the Valsalva Maneuver which is blamed for brass playing problems... but you do it whenever you cough, lift something, go to the bathroom, and probably when you get up out of bed every morning.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 1:20 pm The misconception is the fact that it's commonly referred to as a muscle when it's really just a membrane.
The actual "diaphragm" muscle is the abs, combined with everything around the rib cage.

In practical terms it's all just how you breathe... everybody knows how to breathe, you do it 24 hours a day. Brass playing isn't really that much different until you get into the high range on trumpet.

The same goes for the Valsalva Maneuver which is blamed for brass playing problems... but you do it whenever you cough, lift something, go to the bathroom, and probably when you get up out of bed every morning.

Glad you mention the Valsalva Maneuver. Having damaged spinal disks, I was given a so-called modified Valsalva Maneuver to strengthen the abdominal muscles, especially where they attach to the spine in the back in order to help take over the cushioning effect of the disks on the vertebrae. Got this from my physical therapists around 2013. I do these laying on my back. While inhaling I raise my shins parallel to the floor and hold my breathe for 10 seconds, making sure I feel the small of my back pressing into the yoga matt. From the beginning, instead of simply holding my breathe, I'd slowly exhale through pursed lips. Recently, I've even sung a little, just to make sure my throat doesn't tighten, since I had that problem as a trumpet player way back in the day. But I for sure can feel it if it wants to tighten and the singing helps remind how it should be.

Yeo has an article about how bad the Valsalva Maneuver is, but I simply find, that if you can do it and make sure the throat doesn't close, it's actually beneficial - a big IF though,

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:39 pm

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:06 pm No such thing as diaphramatic breathing. You can’t „control“ it, you can’t strengthen it.

Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.

During diaphragmatic breathing, you consciously use your diaphragm to take deep breaths.
You can´t control the diaphragm the same way as your arm or leg muscles, because the diphragm has no feling.
You can decide to flex your arm muscle, but you can't feel the diaphragm, you can decide to take a deep breath.

Thanks for sharing. That video made a lot of sense - except I'm not so sure about the wedge breathing part.

I always believed the diaphragm was a muscle, and I'm surprised it's not. That puts a different slant on how we breathe. When we lived overseas I went to the original Bodyworld and saw an actual body, preserved (plasticized) and exploded like a parts diagram. The internal organs were different from my imagination, despite anatomy classes. There is an exhibit touring the US but at least when in Richmond it was a pale shadow.

Olofson wrote: ↑Thu Mar 07, 2024 6:48 am

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun Mar 03, 2024 5:39 pm
Sitting here in my desk chair, I can choose to breathe or hold my breath. If that isn't diaphragmatic control, what is it? Is the diaphragm still firing while I hold my breath? Nothing seems to be moving.

During diaphragmatic breathing, you consciously use your diaphragm to take deep breaths.
You can´t control the diaphragm the same way as your arm or leg muscles, because the diphragm has no feling.
You can decide to flex your arm muscle, but you can't feel the diaphragm, you can decide to take a deep breath.

Mr. Olofson: Did you actually WATCH the video? You don't have to argue with me, I didn't make those statements. Dr. Miller did. The Cardio-Pulminary doctor who also plays trumpet. Tell HIM he's wrong, not me.
Ones decision to take a shallow or deep breathe has nothing to do with the diaphragm, the diaphragm doesn't initiate anything, nor does it determine anything. It's simply there as a partly transparent membrane of flexible tendon material attached along the edges by muscle material.

I thought we figured this out with Arnold Jacobs. I know "wind and song" can be a swear word to some, but the idea of "intercostals:" etc. being vital to breathing has been out there in the community for a long time. Maybe Jacobs used the word diaphragm too (I don't have any of his written material handy) but he certainly knew and taught how breathing works.

This is one of those things, I think, where knowing all the details could be interesting, but not terribly necessary to improving the skill.

I don't know the name of every muscle I use when I squat, but I know how a squat should look.

I don't know all the muscles involved in breathing, but I know what a full breath feels and looks like.

I did watch the wideo. In the video says that the diaphragm is a tissue without muscles, but surounded with a wreath of muscles. The muscles is a part of the diaphragm. Larry Miller never said that there are no muscles in the diephragm. Look again carefully.