New York Bach 16 II?

[Chazzer69]

Howdy! A friend sent me pictures of a New York Bach 16 he found. The bell engraving seems to show a "II" after the 16. (see pic) I can find references on the interwebs to "6 II"s but not a "16 II". Nothing seems to be on Bach Loyalist about it. The serial puts the manufacture date at 1940.

Anyone experts/afficionados have any info on this? Am I misreading what's in the photo?

TIA

[Chazzer69]

I dug around more and found a little info on some previously sold 16IIs on BrassArk. Appears that this horn likely has a variation on either the neck pipe, tuning slide, or maybe both. Would love to get more detail if possible.

Also, any thoughts on the value of a horn like this? The other photos indicate it's in pretty good shape for an 80+ year old horn. Lacquer in decent condition, no apparent wear on the stockings, slide moves well though he didn't give a 'grade'. He's thinking about buying it, but not sure if the price is reasonable.

[akkujii]

I just recently purchased a New York Bach model 16II with silver finish. Based on the serial number this seems to be the same age (~1940). According to my understanding standard Bach 16 is dual bore but with my trombone I was able to place the outer slide of the trombone over the inner slide the other way around which shouldn't be possible with dual-bore models.

The seller requested 1000€ but agreed to drop the price few hundred euros because the slide wasn't in perfect shape. The coating is in decent condition except some oxidation in few places and it came with original case with some accessories. The instrument in question hasn't been played for a long time, and I intend to have it thoroughly cleaned before playing it more because the horn needs thorough cleaning.

BachLoyalist database has one entry about model 16ii which seems to be dual bore from 1954 but as mentioned mine isn't.

[Chazzer69]

Thanks for the info! This one looks to be a dual bore. I think the asking price is just a little lower than what you noted (in US dollars), but it may not be in as good shape.

[CalgaryTbone]

The 16's were all dual bore back then. The Roman Numerals on the NY Bach bells denote some sort of difference from the stock configuration. I'm pretty sure I saw a list of what each different Roman Numeral designates somewhere online. I had a 12 from that era for a while - I think it also had a II (2) on the bell, but I don't recall exactly what it referred to. Bach's shop was a fairly small operation back then, and they often did slight custom differences to their models for their customers.

Jim Scott

[Trevorspaulding376]

Had an 8ii and loved it

[Dennis]

I just recently purchased a New York Bach model 16II with silver finish. Based on the serial number this seems to be the same age (~1940). According to my understanding standard Bach 16 is dual bore but with my trombone I was able to place the outer slide of the trombone over the inner slide the other way around which shouldn't be possible with dual-bore models.

You'd think that would be the case, but it ain't necessarily so.

The King 2B (.480 upper, .490 lower if memory serves) outer slide can be flipped, because King uses the same outer tubes and expands the stocking on the upper leg to .490+, matching the lower leg.

Whether or not Bach pulls the same trick with NY 16 slides is not known to me.

There are a couple of things I'd do: I'd find the shop card for the horn (most of the NY and Mt Vernon shop cards are on line and indexed. Then I'd get out a good pair of calipers (dial/vernier/digital) and check the OD of the upper and lower legs and the ID of the upper and lower outer slide. The ODs of the legs should be consistent with IDs of .490 upper and .509 lower.

If the ODs of the inner slide legs match or if they are not consistent with the known IDs of Bach 16 upper and lower inner slides I would check carefully for signs of replacement of the slide tubes.

[calcbone]

There are a couple of things I'd do: I'd find the shop card for the horn (most of the NY and Mt Vernon shop cards are on line and indexed. Then I'd get out a good pair of calipers (dial/vernier/digital) and check the OD of the upper and lower legs and the ID of the upper and lower outer slide. The ODs of the legs should be consistent with IDs of .490 upper and .509 lower.

If the ODs of the inner slide legs match or if they are not consistent with the known IDs of Bach 16 upper and lower inner slides I would check carefully for signs of replacement of the slide tubes.

I think you mean the internal diameter of the inner slide tubes…that’s where the bore size is determined (.490/.509).

As an aside… I have an early NY 8ii and it’s awesome apart from the known issue of the squirrelly 9th partial on some small-bore Bachs. I read somewhere that the 8ii may have ended up being the main-line 8 after a while (mine is from 1935, so Bach may have still been experimenting/perfecting the model)… could the same be true for these early 16s?

[Chazzer69]

Taking Dennis' advice and requesting a shop card. Appreciate that info, Dennis!

[baileyman]

16ii with the 7 3/8" rim is the bell section that survived on the later 16, 12, 8. The other mandrels, i, iii, iv (any more?) were dropped. The other ii bells with 7 3/8" rims are the same regardless of the number. It's possible one shows up with custom tuning slide bends and goosenecks, though.

[Dennis]

There are a couple of things I'd do: I'd find the shop card for the horn (most of the NY and Mt Vernon shop cards are on line and indexed. Then I'd get out a good pair of calipers (dial/vernier/digital) and check the OD of the upper and lower legs and the ID of the upper and lower outer slide. The ODs of the legs should be consistent with IDs of .490 upper and .509 lower.

If the ODs of the inner slide legs match or if they are not consistent with the known IDs of Bach 16 upper and lower inner slides I would check carefully for signs of replacement of the slide tubes.

I think you mean the internal diameter of the inner slide tubes…that’s where the bore size is determined (.490/.509).

You can't measure the internal bore size accurately with calipers alone.

Why? Because the stockings are expanded at the point you have access with calipers. You need to use a machinist's bore gauge inserted past the stockings, then measure the bore gauge with the calipers. Lots of people have decent calipers. Or you can go the high dollar route and get a bore gauge that has a direct readout. In either event, bore gauges are in a lot fewer people's toolboxes.

What you can do with calipers is measure the OD off the stockings, measure the tubing thickness (at the stocking) and subtract twice the tubing thickness. That will get you in the ballpark, and will certainly show a 20 thousandths difference.

[ithinknot]

the stockings are expanded at the point you have access with calipers

No, they're not. Same mandrel, different die.

(And in some cases the leading edge is rounded in somewhat below nominal ID, preventing you from getting a non-dial bore gauge out to measure.)

[Chazzer69]

If you had a horn like this that needed some work (bell crease, the usual slide work...clean, align, dent removal), would you consider having a good shop do a full restoration? Does it decrease the value of the horn?

[OneTon]

Repairs that improve the function of the horn, make it obviously play better, and major dent removal, will bring the value up to a plateau. Unless it is a closet queen, that might be ~$1500 to ~$1800. After that, it is pure risk. There is a restorer out there that does full up restoration of King 2B and 3B trombones. He gets upwards of $3000. There is a market for Kings; the horns have cache and a cult following. They seem to move a bit slow. See HN White. Noah at Brass Ark may dabble in it. Dillon Music makes them playable and moves them.

Your horn looks pretty good as is. If it affects form, fit, and function, it will increases value. But you may only get the cost of the repair out of it. Exterior plating and lacquer are generally considered cosmetic. Restoration might devalue it.