Shires Q/Yamaha 835GD vs GB and Markey

[musicofnote]

Hello!

Some mouthpieces "fit" certain horns better than others. Does anyone have positive or negative experiences with

Yamaha 835 (G or GD)
or Shires Q-series

together with
Greg Black or
Griego Markey
mouthpieces?

thanks in advance

[Burgerbob]

Q series will work with both.

835D worked great with my Markey 87.

[musicofnote]

Q series will work with both.

835D worked great with my Markey 87.

Thanks!

[tbonesullivan]

I know it's not quite the same, I've been using a Griego - Markey 85 with my Yamaha 830 and have been getting complements on my tone.

[Jhonybassbone2024]

Greetings

I used to play a WHF (German style) mouthpiece with My Shires Custom but I love playing my Shires or My Yamaha YBL620G with My Griego Gp, the tone is amazing.
I'm not a big Greg Black fan, they're good but I don't like the core of the sound... I'd rather play with Griego or Willies mouthpieces.

I have a Yamaha 61D mouthpiece and it goes very well with my Yamaha bass trombone. I wouldn't play a Yamaha bass trombone with a huge bass trombone mouthpiece. I think it loses focus, core, sound quality and projection.

[musicofnote]

I know it's not quite the same, I've been using a Griego - Markey 85 with my Yamaha 830 and have been getting complements on my tone.

I'm using a Markey 85 on my Xeno 822G and am getting tired of not hitting the sweet spot with the teflon tape. The mouthpieces insert too far into the receiver without it. I have a Yamaha 59L and it doesn't insert as far and works well, just too small for me. Yesterday and today it was perfect with the tape. But just a little too much tape on the shaft and the slotting upstairs suffers. Too little or none and the slotting in the paddle registers get mushy.

I'm taking the 822g in for service the beginning of May and the shop has a Shires Q36GR and a Yamaha 835DG. So was thinking of trying them. Shouldn't even tempt myself, but ...

Does your 830 swallow the mouthpieces in the receiver?

[Elow]

Has Doug Elliott made a solution for this problem?

[tbonesullivan]

I'm using a Markey 85 on my Xeno 822G and am getting tired of not hitting the sweet spot with the teflon tape. The mouthpieces insert too far into the receiver without it. I have a Yamaha 59L and it doesn't insert as far and works well, just too small for me. Yesterday and today it was perfect with the tape. But just a little too much tape on the shaft and the slotting upstairs suffers. Too little or none and the slotting in the paddle registers get mushy.

I'm taking the 822g in for service the beginning of May and the shop has a Shire Q36GR and a Yamaha 835DG. So was thinking of trying them. Shouldn't even tempt myself, but ...

Does your 830 swallow the mouthpieces in the receiver?

All Yamaha trombones starting with the 613H and 622G have had the deeper receiver, which was not changed until the 835. So both the 830 and 822 have it, and honestly, as stated by some very knowledgeable techs and trombone designers, insertion depth is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the distance between the throat of the mouthpiece and the venturi in the leadpipe. I have never used any type of teflon tape with either my 830 or 822G with ANY mouthpiece I have used with them for a significant amount of time, and was able to get a good sound and accurate intonation.

These include: Faxx 1 1/2G, Yamaha 59L, Laskey 85MD, Marcinciewicz EBT-2, Griego-Markey 85 and 87, Ferguson -Minick V, L, and JR, and a Hammond 20BL.

I should also note that recent Bach 42 trombones I have tried out seem to have a shallower receiver ones made 20 years ago, and the distance my mouthpiece sticks out further now on my new 42BOF is about 3-4mm, which is the same as the usual difference in insertion depth that I see with the Yamaha bass trombones. I haven't noticed any major issues.

[musicofnote]

I'm using a Markey 85 on my Xeno 822G and am getting tired of not hitting the sweet spot with the teflon tape. The mouthpieces insert too far into the receiver without it. I have a Yamaha 59L and it doesn't insert as far and works well, just too small for me. Yesterday and today it was perfect with the tape. But just a little too much tape on the shaft and the slotting upstairs suffers. Too little or none and the slotting in the paddle registers get mushy.

All Yamaha trombones starting with the 613H and 622G have had the deeper receiver, which was not changed until the 835. So both the 830 and 822 have it, and honestly, as stated by some very knowledgeable techs and trombone designers, insertion depth is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the distance between the throat of the mouthpiece and the venturi in the leadpipe. I have never used any type of teflon tape with either my 830 or 822G with ANY mouthpiece I have used with them for a significant amount of time, and was able to get a good sound and accurate intonation.

These include: Faxx 1 1/2G, Yamaha 59L, Laskey 85MD, Marcinciewicz EBT-2, Griego-Markey 85 and 87, Ferguson -Minick V, L, and JR, and a Hammond 20BL.

I should also note that recent Bach 42 trombones I have tried out seem to have a shallower receiver ones made 20 years ago, and the distance my mouthpiece sticks out further now on my new 42BOF is about 3-4mm, which is the same as the usual difference in insertion depth that I see with the Yamaha bass trombones. I haven't noticed any major issues.

Well, I guess I just should STFU and play my trombone. Problem is, when -I- play, I have 4 mouthpieces that when inserted, play well, without losing slot accuracy:
Wedge Hybrid 109 with Remington style shaft
Wedge Hybrid 110 with Remington style shaft
Yamaha 59L
Yamaha 58L

They all insert to the same depth according to length of the mouthpiece shafts which are the same length as my other mouthpieces that insert further. With these 4 mouthpieces that don't insert as far, the slotting remains stable upstairs and downstairs. With ALL of the others, which insert further, the lower register slotting is fuzzy, which, the -I- play, tends to crack lower notes or cause, that they do not speak reliably, especially at loud levels and especially when arpeggiating from above into the paddle and double paddle register. This is NOT the case with the four that don't insert as far. Playing on the pieces that insert further, gives me a more solid upper register though with rock solid slots, such that octave jumps upwards land locked in. And I did not mention intonation per se. That stays the same whether with the four listed above or with the others. It's the manner of effort needed to achieve accuracy, ie the slotting that is different. Oh .... and someone should really ask Ch. Griego why he offers special versions of his mouthpieces for deeper Yamaha receivers.

Now I'm ever so happy for you and your techs that they do not know of this "problem", indicating that it's my obvious failing technique that allows for good slotting and accuracy with 4 pieces and lousy slotting and less accuracy with pieces that insert more. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm also happy for you that you are not affected by this. Ah, if only I had your good fortune and solid technique.

Personally, we're all differ hardware different and react to differently. 'Nuff said.

[WGWTR180]

After reading this thread one word comes to mind. Simplify.

[harrisonreed]

You're not alone with the Yamaha bass issue. I would recommend any other brand, or a pre-Xeno model. I got my hands on an old Edwards bass that was an instantaneous, significant improvement in playability.

Some people like Xenos. Some people like Bach. Some people drink Moxie. A friend of mine said that once he finally figured out how to get his Bach perfectly set up and modded, and really learned to get the most out of it, *then* he would treat himself to an Edwards and upgrade. (to be fair he sounds really good on his hybrid Bach)

Try a different brand.

[musicofnote]

You're not alone with the Yamaha bass issue. I would recommend any other brand, or a pre-Xeno model. I got my hands on an old Edwards bass that was an instantaneous, significant improvement in playability.

Some people like Xenos. Some people like Bach. Some people drink Moxie. A friend of mine said that once he finally figured out how to get his Bach perfectly set up and modded, and really learned to get the most out of it, *then* he would treat himself to an Edwards and upgrade. (to be fair he sounds really good on his hybrid Bach)

Try a different brand.

LOL - that's the point. If I were 20 years younger, I'd jump. But I'm 71 now. Yeah, I know: Jump now and enjoy, don't be a martyr. When the mouthpiece/horn now are harmonizing, like the last couple of days, I'm satisfied. And then, when I need to re-apply that teflon band (thanks for the help with that) and it again doesn't work, so I have to re-apply and re-apply, the frustration sets in.

Well, the first step is taken. It would seem the 835 and the Shires are not a problem for what mouthpieces I'm using. So I've got 4 weeks to stew some more before taking the 822g in for service and maybe trying the couple of horns they have there. THEN comes the tough decision.

[musicofnote]

All Yamaha trombones starting with the 613H and 622G have had the deeper receiver, which was not changed until the 835. So both the 830 and 822 have it, and honestly, as stated by some very knowledgeable techs and trombone designers, insertion depth is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the distance between the throat of the mouthpiece and the venturi in the leadpipe. I have never used any type of teflon tape with either my 830 or 822G with ANY mouthpiece I have used with them for a significant amount of time, and was able to get a good sound and accurate intonation.

These include: Faxx 1 1/2G, Yamaha 59L, Laskey 85MD, Marcinciewicz EBT-2, Griego-Markey 85 and 87, Ferguson -Minick V, L, and JR, and a Hammond 20BL.

I should also note that recent Bach 42 trombones I have tried out seem to have a shallower receiver ones made 20 years ago, and the distance my mouthpiece sticks out further now on my new 42BOF is about 3-4mm, which is the same as the usual difference in insertion depth that I see with the Yamaha bass trombones. I haven't noticed any major issues.

Well, I guess I just should STFU and play my trombone. Problem is, when -I- play, I have 4 mouthpieces that when inserted, play well, without losing slot accuracy:
Wedge Hybrid 109 with Remington style shaft
Wedge Hybrid 110 with Remington style shaft
Yamaha 59L
Yamaha 58L

They all insert to the same depth according to length of the mouthpiece shafts which are the same length as my other mouthpieces that insert further. With these 4 mouthpieces that don't insert as far, the slotting remains stable upstairs and downstairs. With ALL of the others, which insert further, the lower register slotting is fuzzy, which, the -I- play, tends to crack lower notes or cause, that they do not speak reliably, especially at loud levels and especially when arpeggiating from above into the paddle and double paddle register. This is NOT the case with the four that don't insert as far. Playing on the pieces that insert further, gives me a more solid upper register though with rock solid slots, such that octave jumps upwards land locked in. And I did not mention intonation per se. That stays the same whether with the four listed above or with the others. It's the manner of effort needed to achieve accuracy, ie the slotting that is different. Oh .... and someone should really ask Ch. Griego why he offers special versions of his mouthpieces for deeper Yamaha receivers.

Now I'm ever so happy for you and your techs that they do not know of this "problem", indicating that it's my obvious failing technique that allows for good slotting and accuracy with 4 pieces and lousy slotting and less accuracy with pieces that insert more. Thanks for clearing that up. I'm also happy for you that you are not affected by this. Ah, if only I had your good fortune and solid technique.

Personally, we're all different. hardware different. and react to things differently. 'Nuff said.

[ithinknot]

Try the other horns, and if you like them more, great.

If not: if the "Remington" shanked Wedges play well and fit (...without wobbling, which I'd be surprised to hear, given that a real Remington taper in a Morse receiver will grab at the tip of the shank and still wobble further up, but if the Wedge-Remington/Yamaha combo works, it works...) why not just get the Wedge model mentioned in your signature with that shank?

[musicofnote]

Try the other horns, and if you like them more, great.

If not: if the "Remington" shanked Wedges play well and fit (...without wobbling, which I'd be surprised to hear, given that a real Remington taper in a Morse receiver will grab at the tip of the shank and still wobble further up, but if the Wedge-Remington/Yamaha combo works, it works...) why not just get the Wedge model mentioned in your signature with that shank?

I have that Wedge with and without "Remington similar" (what he used to call it, but doesn't anymore) shank. The version without inserts too far. But if you look at the specs, the Markey 85 and 87 are larger than the Wedge 110G 2nd generation. The Greg Black 1 3/8G is about the same diameter as that Wedge, but I've found, that the Markeys fit me actually better now. I'm not going to change my signature until I settle on mouthpiece and horn. I used to have a Wedge that was modelled after the Schilke 59 and that was about as large as the Markey 85, but that didn't then work for me as well in all registers as the Markeys now do.

Dr. Dave did not state that his "Remington similar" shank is a true Remington shank. He said then (awhile ago, but doesn't say this anymore) it's similar. In fact, in an email, when I asked him about it he wrote: "Yes. The new blank works in deep receivers and normal receivers. It replaces the previous BT deep receiver blank." so it's an improvement over previous shafts designed for deeper receivers. Now, he writes on his page: "Note: Some bass trombones, for example some vintage King models, have an extra deep receiver. If your mouthpiece inserts more than 1.25 inches (31 mm) into your leadpipe be sure to select the BT Deep Receiver option when ordering bass trombone mouthpieces."

And despite the Wedge 110 for deeper receiver working in "normal" and "deeper" receivers, it inserts just as much as my Yamaha 59 mouthpiece, which slots perfectly, but is just too small for me now. While the sound and response of this new Wedge version is very good, I was surprised to determine, that I liked more the sound and response of the Greg Black and even more, the Markey mouthpieces. Surprised especially, since I've played Wedges since 2016 and they've been instrumental in helping correct the last hold-over embouchure "problem" I had from my old trumpet days. Previous attempts to play non-Wedges evoked that old problem again. This time around, not.