TromboneChat

Following the recent threads about different size instruments, the one horn I'm jealous of is a friend's NY Bach 36. It was a speculative purchase but she sounds great on it.

Is there a modern horn that would be equivalent (yes, I know that Noah has 2 available right now).

Thx all

S

No

I’ve owned a few. I like my 36 from 1987 the most. Try a horn from a later period. Looking for the details of how your friend’s 36 was built could help you look for the closest modern built equivalent. Check oversleeves (equal length or not), bell flare shape compared to modern 36 (do tenor mutes fit?) tuning slide width, bell rim (French bead?). Will it play the same? Probably not. But it may help you on the journey of finding a horn that plays close.

I ordered a horn from Steve Shires to be built like a modern NY LT36B. Arrives next month I’ll let you know!

sf105 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 8:28 am Following the recent threads about different size instruments, the one horn I'm jealous of is a friend's NY Bach 36. It was a speculative purchase but she sounds great on it.

Is there a modern horn that would be equivalent (yes, I know that Noah has 2 available right now).

There is this O'Malley guy who is recreating MV horns. viewtopic.php?t=36611 https://www.omalleyhorns.com/collection ... production

Although a Rath R3 isn't nearly a NY 36 drop in replacement, but it's a damn nice medium bore horn.

Vintage horns sound vintage for a reason. One little change............

I think of the various attempts to recreate the classic Earl Williams trombone:

Bob (Earl didn’t teach him everything allegedly)
Donelson
Schmeltzer
Kanstul

There was a trumpet builder, Calicchio?, after Donelson. And there were a couple of other fellows, Oxon and Duda, who had the original tooling (which I guess would be the mandrels). Locally, Joe DeBruycker copied Dave Robbin’s Williams to build his own bells, or so I heard (I think Joe told me). My Joe and Bob weren’t all that similar.

But Earl horns are still the Holy Grail.

I know in the vintage electric guitar world woods dry, magnets lose their strength, and electronics degrade over time. This supposedly accounts for why vintage sounds better. Do analagous changes - changes in the molecular structure of the brass- occur and have similar effects in old brass instruments? Then there is the WW2 era brass, never to be duplicated.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 10:36 am I think of the various attempts to recreate the classic Earl Williams trombone:

Bob (Earl didn’t teach him everything allegedly)
Donelson
Schmeltzer
Kanstul

My impression of Manfred Schmelzer's work is that it's inspired by Earl Williams', but it's not at attempt to reproduce it.

And there were a couple of other fellows, Oxon and Duda, who had the original tooling (which I guess would be the mandrels)

John Noxon and John Duda (both gone now); they, along with Mike Corrigan, were involved during the Tulsa era.

That depends on how "equivalent" you want. You aren't likely to get an equivalent NY 36 if you bought another NY 36 if you're really particular. If you're more looking for a similar horn, any of the medium bores from the boutique makers is going to be killer with similar specs on paper. M&W and Shires both offer 8", one-piece bells. I think Courtouis has a similarly specced medium bore too with a one-piece bell. I'm going to take possession of an O'Malley bell in the near future (put my order in a few weeks ago), though I'm getting the 6iii bell, will report how much I like it! They don't advertise a 36 bell, but I talked to them about the 6iii bell and could go anywhere from 7" to 8" with it, I see no reason why they couldn't with the 42 bell. The 42 bell is essentially identical to the 36 bell, with the exception of the final .5".

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:05 pm ..., though I'm getting the 6iii bell, ...

I don't understand why he's reproducing Bach 6 bells. You can get an entire assembled original NY Bach 6 for less than a thousand. I have a friend with 2 that are 1 owner instruments, and it's not worth selling for the amount of money he can get from them. There's not a need for more Bach 6s. Now 50 bells would be a different story.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 10:36 am I think of the various attempts to recreate the classic Earl Williams trombone:

Bob (Earl didn’t teach him everything allegedly)
Donelson
Schmeltzer
Kanstul

There was a trumpet builder, Calicchio?, after Donelson. And there were a couple of other fellows, Oxon and Duda, who had the original tooling (which I guess would be the mandrels). Locally, Joe DeBruycker copied Dave Robbin’s Williams to build his own bells, or so I heard (I think Joe told me). My Joe and Bob weren’t all that similar.

Chris Calicchio (Dominic's grandson) was building Calicchio trumpets and Williams 6's in the 1990s, before he sold the Williams tooling to Donelson.

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 7:32 pm Chris Calicchio (Dominic's grandson) was building Calicchio trumpets and Williams 6's in the 1990s, before he sold the Williams tooling to Donelson.

I believe the timeline was:
Los Angeles (Earl and Spike Wallace as Williams & Wallace, later on Earl his own)
Burbank (Earl)
Burbank (Bob)
Donelson, TN (Jay Armstrong)
Los Angeles (Chris Calicchio)
Tulsa (John Noxon and John Duda)
John Duda later moved to Canby, OR, where he shared space with Marcinkiewicz; I think he managed to produce a few trombones, but the main emphasis was on Calicchio trumpets.
Eventually, John Duda went to work at BAC in Kansas City, taking the Williams and Calicchio trademarks and tooling with him. AFAIK, he was still working there when he passed away and the tooling is now in the possession of BAC.

But back on topic...

You can reverse engineer the final dimensions and the materials, but you can't reverse engineer the fabrication processes.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:14 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:05 pm ..., though I'm getting the 6iii bell, ...

I don't understand why he's reproducing Bach 6 bells. You can get an entire assembled original NY Bach 6 for less than a thousand. I have a friend with 2 that are 1 owner instruments, and it's not worth selling for the amount of money he can get from them. There's not a need for more Bach 6s. Now 50 bells would be a different story.

When life gives you lemons, you make Bach 6 bells. More mandrels are in the works.

We absolutely could make an 8" 42 bell with french bead, for those in the market for something like that. I'll see about having that option added to the website.

Just go for the real deal.
A well taken care of 90yr old top tier horn will still play better (smoother slide, less maintenance, etc.) than all but the best modern horns.
Try the new stuff, some of it is super fun, and no shame in going for it.
But it’s not the same.
I had a NY 36, absolutely loved it, just couldn’t justify keeping it.
But if that’s what you want there’s no substitute

“A well taken care of 90yr old top tier horn will still play better (smoother slide, less maintenance, etc.) than all but the best modern horns.”

There’s the rub. Those well taken care of older horns are getting fewer and farther between. At least, that has been my personal experience over the past few years.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:02 pm “A well taken care of 90yr old top tier horn will still play better (smoother slide, less maintenance, etc.) than all but the best modern horns.”

There’s the rub. Those well taken care of older horns are getting fewer and farther between. At least, that has been my personal experience over the past few years.

Exactly. And the 90 yr old horns that were professionally used were often maintained or modified, worn parts replaced, relacquered, etc.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:14 pm

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:05 pm ..., though I'm getting the 6iii bell, ...

I don't understand why he's reproducing Bach 6 bells. You can get an entire assembled original NY Bach 6 for less than a thousand. I have a friend with 2 that are 1 owner instruments, and it's not worth selling for the amount of money he can get from them. There's not a need for more Bach 6s. Now 50 bells would be a different story.

As far as I know, that’s the same mandrel used for *all* Bach small bores - 8, 12, and 16 were all made on the same mandrel post Mt Vernon, so technically it’s not just a 6 reproduction. Miles and co also made me two 7.75 inch bells off that mandrel, so it’s not like they’re completely limited in that regard either.

ngrinder wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:51 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:14 pm

I don't understand why he's reproducing Bach 6 bells. You can get an entire assembled original NY Bach 6 for less than a thousand. I have a friend with 2 that are 1 owner instruments, and it's not worth selling for the amount of money he can get from them. There's not a need for more Bach 6s. Now 50 bells would be a different story.

As far as I know, that’s the same mandrel used for *all* Bach small bores - 8, 12, and 16 were all made on the same mandrel post Mt Vernon, so technically it’s not just a 6 reproduction. Miles and co also made me two 7.75 inch bells off that mandrel, so it’s not like they’re completely limited in that regard either.

I think the model 8 had a somewhat larger bell throat than the 6, but still with a 7" bell. The 12 and 16 had the same throat as the 8 but with a larger, 7 1/2" bell.

RJMason wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:34 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:02 pm “A well taken care of 90yr old top tier horn will still play better (smoother slide, less maintenance, etc.) than all but the best modern horns.”

There’s the rub. Those well taken care of older horns are getting fewer and farther between. At least, that has been my personal experience over the past few years.

Exactly. And the 90 yr old horns that were professionally used were often maintained or modified, worn parts replaced, relacquered, etc.

Point well taken, and you guys are absolutely correct.
But when you find that unicorn it’s soooooo nice….

I had a chance to play Jim’s NY 36. That was a special horn with a lot of mojo.

While my all yellow brass Rath R3 doesn’t play exactly like a Bach 36 it sure has a lot of the same characteristics.

Jimkinkella wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 3:43 pm

RJMason wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:34 pm

Exactly. And the 90 yr old horns that were professionally used were often maintained or modified, worn parts replaced, relacquered, etc.

Point well taken, and you guys are absolutely correct.
But when you find that unicorn it’s soooooo nice….

It is sooo nice! I had a Bach 30, it sounded so dreamy. But I couldn’t justify keeping it. There have been a couple NY 36s on my radar, but what I really want is a 34B in original condition!

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:14 pmI don't understand why he's reproducing Bach 6 bells.

They have the mandrels, why not?

The O'Malley shop has a lot of mandrels, and every so often I find out about another one they have and dream of making a horn around it or ordering a bell to put on an existing horn. Making new bells from original mandrels (or new mandrels that duplicate vintage flares) is unique and ultra cool, and there is a market for it.

I'm scared to ask them how much it would cost to get a new mandrel made, but I have plenty of ideas...

Finetales wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 9:56 am
They have the mandrels, why not?

Priority wise the 6 would be the lowest of the low. The 6's were popular in the 50s and 60s, and we still have tons of them. Compare prices on NY 6s and any other NY model. Just seems like an odd choice. If people buy them, that's great. I'd focus resources where there's more value and more demand, though.

Making new bells from original mandrels (or new mandrels that duplicate vintage flares) is unique and ultra cool, and there is a market for it.

Miles is not the first maker to do this...

Lol

You can't buy a NY or Mt. Vernon bell for $600. And you wouldn't be able to find one in red brass or sterling silver unless you get insanely lucky. Nor could you get a two-piece 6 bell because Bach never made them as far as I know.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pmLol

Is that aimed at me?

No. You're entirely right -- "original mandrels" goes back way further than anyone who is alive or on this forum.

The buzz about this O'Malley guy is a bit funny.

hornbuilder wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 3:16 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 12:30 pmLol

Is that aimed at me?

Only in a laughing with you rather than at you sort of way.

Trying to replicate vintage bells, either with the original mandrels (a la the various successors to Earl Williams) or by making new mandrels isn't in any way unique to Miles O'Malley (though it's arguably cool); it seems to be a pretty common practice in the world of small-shop trombone builders.

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:05 pm That depends on how "equivalent" you want. You aren't likely to get an equivalent NY 36 if you bought another NY 36 if you're really particular. If you're more looking for a similar horn, any of the medium bores from the boutique makers is going to be killer with similar specs on paper. M&W and Shires both offer 8", one-piece bells. I think Courtouis has a similarly specced medium bore too with a one-piece bell. I'm going to take possession of an O'Malley bell in the near future (put my order in a few weeks ago), though I'm getting the 6iii bell, will report how much I like it! They don't advertise a 36 bell, but I talked to them about the 6iii bell and could go anywhere from 7" to 8" with it, I see no reason why they couldn't with the 42 bell. The 42 bell is essentially identical to the 36 bell, with the exception of the final .5".

There is a lot of truth here. I recently lucked into a wonderful NY36 and to my surprise it arrived with a 8.25” bell!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2024 3:45 pm The buzz about this O'Malley guy is a bit funny.

Why is it funny?

Ngrinder, I was wondering the same thing, What`s so funny about him?

Who plays a NY Bach 36? (Genuinely curious)

I have been playing a NY Bach 36b for a few years. Currently using a Bob Reeves Clarke mouthpiece. Mostly play a lot of new music in brass quintet or other chamber music situations with it. I enjoy the color and articulation flexibility that it encourages.

I don’t really know anyone who plays a NY36. Maybe Mark Patterson, though his 36 might be younger? I think the best 36s are late MtV, early Elkhart, when the design became codified. And then there were some really fine Bachs being made mid 80s-mid 90s. With pre-1965 Bachs you get unique variants which will sound unlike anything else, but ultimately may not be as versatile and useful (as I learned with my journey through NY medium horns).

ngrinder wrote: ↑Sat Jul 20, 2024 12:51 pm

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Jul 19, 2024 12:14 pm

I don't understand why he's reproducing Bach 6 bells. You can get an entire assembled original NY Bach 6 for less than a thousand. I have a friend with 2 that are 1 owner instruments, and it's not worth selling for the amount of money he can get from them. There's not a need for more Bach 6s. Now 50 bells would be a different story.

As far as I know, that’s the same mandrel used for *all* Bach small bores - 8, 12, and 16 were all made on the same mandrel post Mt Vernon, so technically it’s not just a 6 reproduction. Miles and co also made me two 7.75 inch bells off that mandrel, so it’s not like they’re completely limited in that regard either.

Correct. Someone shared a document earlier that confirms that the 6iii, 8, 12, and 16 are the same mandrel - thought it might be useful here as well.