TromboneChat

How does the 8ii vary from the standard model 8?

Different bell mandrel, but I don't know the specific difference. The most common model 6 bell is a VII, but I don't know what the standard was for an 8.

Is more bigger tuning crook , trhoath the bell then standard and plays more bigger and more easy... and lightweight slide are a better easy playing

New price 2200 euro

SteveM wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2024 1:02 am How does the 8ii vary from the standard model 8?

8ii is the subsequent standard bell you can get today. Same as 12ii, 16ii, and if you have a 6ii with 7 3/8" diameter, then also the same.

Thanks

2000 new price

Fwiw, I’ve owned a NY 8ii, 12ii and 16ii. They all had 2-piece bell construction, so maybe look for a horizontal seam under the patina in addition to the usual vertical one? This could account for that easier blow, (almost like 5-10% in the “Conn-ish” direction, partials a touch farther apart, imho.

Interesting... I have a NY 8ii from perhaps 6 months earlier, slide LT gold outers/yellow crook with the short socket diamond flanges and yellow brace tube, as here. The bell is definitely 1-piece.

Are there pro bachs with two piece bells?

Most certainly. I actually had all of those NY flares swapped out for good one-piece Corp.flares. Will try to capture in pics when I get home. It’s wild, looks like an -X- where the seams meet!

Snapped photos of the flares and just noticed, the Roman numerals on my bells are uppercase so 12 II and 8 II (as opposed to ii). I always wondered how Bach made this distinction, it never occurred to me that the model names were case sensitive. So I guess that brings us back to the original question…Going by that sheet that’s been circulating that Peppy put together (attached here), although it’s not specifically listed, I’d assume that the 8ii was made on the 425 mandrel just like the 8,12,16, 6i & 6ii. If I had to guess at what differentiates it from the 8, I might say the small tuning slide tube, as that’s the only difference between the 6i & 6ii.

Oh wow that’s really interesting. I don’t think I’ve ever played a two piece (or… three piece???) Bach bell. Now that I think about it I never looked at my Bach 9 very closely, nor did I know much when I owned it even if I had..:: wonder how prevalent that was

jbtrombone wrote: ↑Mon Jul 29, 2024 12:51 am Snapped photos of the flares and just noticed, the Roman numerals on my bells are uppercase so 12 II and 8 II (as opposed to ii). I always wondered how Bach made this distinction, it never occurred to me that the model names were case sensitive. So I guess that brings us back to the original question…Going by that sheet that’s been circulating that Peppy put together (attached here), although it’s not specifically listed, I’d assume that the 8ii was made on the 425 mandrel just like the 8,12,16, 6i & 6ii. If I had to guess at what differentiates it from the 8, I might say the small tuning slide tube, as that’s the only difference between the 6i & 6ii.

I think you might be inventing a distinction where none exists... Max's horn, your pictured horn and my horn are all stamped uppercase, we've just been typing lower in this thread. I don't recall any 6 or other model with lower case stamping.

Of NY8s with any following numerals, 8 II seems the most common. My 8 II bell section has the standard measurements associated with the usual later modelz 8 thru 16, as set out by Peppy.

There tend to be very slight length differences between NY and Corp small bores, sometimes a 1/4" longer in the neckpipe and stem and correspondingly shorter TS legs on the earlier horns. My guess is that new assembly jigs were made in/for Elkhart, but the tapers and cylindrical measurements are essentially the same (or at least not "meaningfully/intentionally" different).

Ok thanks for the info

I saw the uppercase marking in the photo vs. the lowercase typing thing, but what’s baffling is both my section mate and I at Chicago on Broadway own a 6i model. His is marked with a full lowercase “i” and mine is marked “6.” (just a period following the number, but all same specs (except for nickel neckpipe on mine). Mine is 1935 and his is from 1939. I have definitely seen lowercase stamping on other models as well, so I don’t think I’m “inventing a distinction.” Just trying to make sense of it. Also, the flares I took photos of are completely lacquer free and polished, and the seams are *really* tough to see, so maybe the other II bells mentioned here are potentially 2-piece bells, especially given the commentary about response/feel. I guess my question is: if I thinknot’s bell is definitely a 1-piece, why would Bach have different models stamped exactly the same? Just curious…

I think what they're saying is that there isn't a disction in specs, not that some are lowercase and some are upper case.

As far as why they would be different... because Bach was a boutique shop at the time and they seem to have never totally settled on nomenclature, even to this day. I'm drawing a blank but I know I've seen bells where sometimes something is stamped, sometimes it isn't. In this case maybe they didn't have a designation for two-piece bells and never stamped it. I certainly can't remember any destination for two-piece bells on Bach horns, and I know there are some rare-as-hens-teeth like narrow slides that I'm not sure if they ever had a designation for.

Your 2pcs are stamped upper case, but - my 8 II aside - so too are the majority of 6s with 1pc bells, so I don't see correlation between Caps Lock and seam construction.

Re your section's 6s, I'd guess the 6 I-VII categories were formalized by the late 30s, so yours might have the I/i spec but predate the classification. Your period was probably meaningful that year, but I don't know that we can guess beyond that point... You see early and mid-30s horns with the mandrel number marked (425/440 etc) and no model number; I'm sure some specs correspond to the later models, and some don't. Some Bronx horns are New York 67, some are just New York.

What are the dates on your 2pc bells, assuming the slides are original pairings? If they were all wartime production, it would make sense that the factory was cutting sheet in a way that gives reduced wastage.

Makes sense, all have been 28XX and 29XX serials, so 46-47ish. I really love 1-piece bells, so it has been a drag to snag those NY Bachs only to find the extra seams under the lacquer. After 3 such incidents (I couldn’t take a hint), I just started shopping outside of the WW2 serials. I think Massimo’s is just early enough to predate the mod if that’s the case.

Weird. My 1947 6vii has a one piece bell with standard wire bead but my 1954 16ii has a one piece bell with french bead. No multipiece with my horns...16ii has a very unusual and pretty sound.

Ok someone are interested?

Oh man I didn’t even see this was in classifieds. Would you like me to move the discussion to a separate thread?

Matt K
Yes and please cancel your messages

For what it is worth, my Bach LT42G one piece bell has interlocking 5/32 inch (4mm) square teeth like a grommet. I saw a YouTube video where they cut and joined the seam. Then they beat on it for a while with a hammer, followed by flowing some solder into it. I was a little freaked out the first time that I noticed it. It is probably a 1960’s horn with a black French case.

I'd have to see those radial supposed seams in person. I would expect to see some difference in color and imperfections in the joints, like pitting. Otherwise, never seen one. All of mine are lengthwise and some of those seams show imperfections.

baileyman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 31, 2024 12:42 pm I'd have to see those radial supposed seams in person. I would expect to see some difference in color and imperfections in the joints, like pitting. Otherwise, never seen one. All of mine are lengthwise and some of those seams show imperfections.

There are a number of Bach 2 piece bells. Not common, but they exist. I have a MtV flugelhorn flare that is 2 piece.

Cheers,
Andy

Fwiw, I just saw a NY 16ii listed on the BrassArk website and Noah has stated in the description that the “ii” designation was for a larger slide crook. He has seen it all re: vintage Bachs, so I’m inclined to think that’s the case.

I wonder why they made them two piece. I can’t think of any marketing material indicating they offer it ever. Obviously, they did offer it!! Or at least shipped them like that

I would imagine that small shops like Bach was then sometimes found creative ways to use their scrap. Back then a bell was a bell and probably nobody cared whether it was one piece or two piece.