TromboneChat

I am just returning after a year off due to health issues and getting a full set of dentures. I am going back to the basics and taking online lessons from a very excellent teacher/instructor. I will ask him, of course, but I was wondering if a jazz improvisor needs to memorize all the scales?

Thanks

Thom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 10:51 am...I was wondering if a jazz improvisor needs to memorize all the scales?

I would say that you need to not just memorize them but know them such that you can play them without having to consciously think about them.

I don't think you need to memorize all of the scales. Just the ones you need to use. You may find that once you are learning your Euler–Fokker scales in each key (a worthwhile pursuit!) you might have learned too many scales.

Don't neglect your 7EDO scales either!!

I'd say for a traditional approach, all the major scales and 3 types of minor scales, plus chromatic, octatonics, whole tones, major and minor pentatonics.

In some disciplines (like jazz) you'll want to start looking at a specific list of commonly used modes from this list, too.

There are actually an infinite # of scales, which can really become overwhelming, when you get into microtonality. But finding ways to deal with that is way beyond the scope of normal.

Not just scales, but every version of every note, so you are always in tune, even if you're playing on Venus!

Basic Rhythms & Art of Improvising by Joe Tarto (digital edition): https://qpress.ca/product/basic-rhythms-art-improvising

A decent approach might be to get something like this and work through it just as a start. This book won't give you anything much at the top of the BC staff or higher (it's intended for "tuba, baritone, bass trombone, string bass, and bass guitar)", but it contains a lot of realistic exercises and examples regarding chords and chord drills, "patterns" (and a lot of syncopation drills) in different styles such as blues, dixieland, Charleston, boogie-woogie, rock, and Latin (Afro, Beguine, Bolero, Calypso, Conga, Cha-cha, etc., etc.), Plus numerous examples with alternative improvisations.

If you won't be going at it with a tuba or bass trombone, you'll probably want to take a lot of the exercises up an octave, and it may not be the best thing for you. But I think that something like it could get you going in the direction you want to go, perhaps better than just a book of scales. There now seems to be a lot of what appears to be good stuff around on improv and the basics. This is just something that's been sitting on my shelf for decades and I'm finally getting to it (slowly).

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:13 am I'd say for a traditional approach, all the major scales and 3 types of minor scales, plus chromatic, octatonics, whole tones, major and minor pentatonics.

In some disciplines (like jazz) you'll want to start looking at a specific list of commonly used modes from this list, too.

There are actually an infinite # of scales, which can really become overwhelming, when you get into microtonality. But finding ways to deal with that is way beyond the scope of normal.

I plan on using the Arbans for Trombone for now to get the basics, because when I was in school and local bands I never really did the basic fundamentals, or practiced, I just played. My teacher/instructor is doing my lesson plans for now. I thank y'all for the replies, very helpful. It is just something I was thinking about for the future, once I am back in shape and getting more advanced.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:13 am There are actually an infinite # of scales, which can really become overwhelming, ...

Yeah, and you have to beware of the "You have to know everything before you can do anything" approach (which is what slowed down the development of AI for decades, but that's a different story). Maybe just learn some blues scales and start with improv in that direction? Relaxed, non-frantic, and fun?

Yes. Further, they should be ingrained so you don’t have to remember them, but are able to play them without having to engage the active thinking part of the brain and instead rely on the muscle memory and “feeling” part of the brain.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:38 am Yes. Further, they should be ingrained so you don’t have to remember them, but are able to play them without having to engage the active thinking part of the brain and instead rely on the muscle memory and “feeling” part of the brain.

One problem is that this gets a LOT harder with advanced age. And part of it can be a kind of age-related sag in short-term memory. I've noticed it happening over the past couple of years and it is SO irritating.

The two areas I've noticed it in are playing music and playing chess. Why do I now so frequently need to check which key I'm supposed to be playing in? That's just crazy. Why do I have so much trouble remembering what the third move by Black is in the Nimzo-Indian Defense? The same sort of thing even applies to "muscle memory" and "feeling". You CAN get (pretty much) to the point you want. But it takes a LOT more repetition, different kinds of repetition, and effort.

I still remember a lot of (sometimes very complex) things that I learned in my youth (foreign language stuff and complex math), I can still recite poems I learned over 50 years ago ("Jaberwocky" is an example). I bet that I could still sit down with a saxophone or flute and be playing it decently in fifteen or twenty minutes. But learning new stuff can be very challenging and take a lot of time and effort. However, when appropriate, trying for the "muscle memory and feeling" approach is best. So while I may not be able to tell you for sure what the third move of the Nimzo-Indian is, if I'm sitting at the board I'll "know" what it should be. Really weird.

I am 64 years old and can relate to age related memory issues, though not with music so much, just names and dates

I understand. I am 61, and have a couple health-related things that affect memory, so I get it.

For solos, you could always write out something and then vary it to suit your mood, the setting, etc. I would hope that makes it a little easier than improvising in the heat of battle.

Yes, it is my understanding that Bill Watrous (sp?) wrote and memorized his solos. I have thought about trying that after I get back in shape and learn the slide really well. I played mostly tuba and bass bone and never really learned a straight tenor properly.

No. Bill was a real improvisor, he did not memorize his solos although he had a lot of ingrained licks and ideas that used a lot... but all jazz players do that to a certain extent. They may sound "composed" just because of his perfection in execution.

Now J.J did work out solos in advance. They sounded composed because they were.

Regarding scales, I learn things differently from a lot of people but I have never "memorized" scales. I play them by ear - know what they sound like and play that - not by what the sharps and flats are. That's sort of a function of having perfect pitch. In school I had trouble learning intervals because I identified them by what notes they were instead of what the interval was. I can't really think intervalically.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:35 pm No. Bill was a real improvisor, he did not memorize his solos although he had a lot of ingrained licks and ideas that used a lot... but all jazz players do that to a certain extent. They may sound "composed" just because of his perfection in execution.

Now J.J did work out solos in advance. They sounded composed because they were.

Regarding scales, I learn things differently from.a lot of people but I have never "memorized" scales. I play them by ear - know what they sound like and play that - not by what the sharps and flats are. That's sort of a function of having perfect pitch. In school Ihad trouble learning intervals because I identified them by what notes they were instead of what the interval was.

Thanks, good advice.

Thom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 11:37 am I plan on using the Arbans for Trombone for now to get the basics, because when I was in school and local bands I never really did the basic fundamentals, or practiced, I just played. My teacher/instructor is doing my lesson plans for now. I thank y'all for the replies, very helpful. It is just something I was thinking about for the future, once I am back in shape and getting more advanced.

Diving into Arbans is an excellent plan.

You'll also want to grab a copy of Rochut book 1. The phrasing and legato studies that one can dive into with those exercises are something that covers a gap in the Arban's stuff.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:35 pm Regarding scales, I learn things differently from a lot of people but I have never "memorized" scales.

I have them memorized, and I can peck out scales that I don't know by ear too.

Also: playing scales by ear is NOT the same as reading scale-based patterns on a sheet of music. If we want to do both, we gotta practice both.

AndrewMeronek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:44 pm

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:35 pm Regarding scales, I learn things differently from a lot of people but I have never "memorized" scales.

I have them memorized, and I can peck out scales that I don't know by ear too.

Also: playing scales by ear is NOT the same as reading scale-based patterns on a sheet of music. If we want to do both, we gotta practice both.

Absolutely. You should hit everything from every angle.

I think this comes under the heading of "Duh!" Yes, of course you need to know your scales by memory. And not just the scales, but patterns you can play on those scales, too.

No, you don't need microtone and weird-ass scales that the criminally obsessed invent. But you do need to know all the scales you will use in jazz, which include major and minor, whole tone, half-step/whole-step diminished, altered dominant, pentatonic (major and minor), and blues scales (major and minor). They need to be second nature.

And yeah, you should have them down equally in all 12 keys. But in reality, in jazz we don't often have to play in 6-7 sharps or flats. But 5 sharps or flats, yeah. So, on one side of the circle of 5ths/4ths, you want to lean the flat scales up to Db (C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab and Db), and on the other side your sharp scales up to B (C, G, D, A, E, B).

Scales in every usable key should be automatic. You shouldn't have to even think about them. Get on it!

Thom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:22 pm Yes, it is my understanding that Bill Watrous (sp?) wrote and memorized his solos. I have thought about trying that after I get back in shape and learn the slide really well. I played mostly tuba and bass bone and never really learned a straight tenor properly.

Yeah, I played with Watrous for 15 years. He was a friend. Trust me when I say your understanding is incorrect. Not even close. Who in the world told you that?

Now, it's true that some folks do play nearly identical solos every time the play the same tune. And when you're playing the same tune every night for years, you do tend to settle over time on licks and shapes that work well. But Billy wasn't like that, at all. Every night was a new adventure. LOL!

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:35 pm That's sort of a function of having perfect pitch.

Another thing I can envy about Doug.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 7:02 pm I think this comes under the heading of "Duh!" Yes, of course you need to know your scales by memory. And not just the scales, but patterns you can play on those scales, too.

No, you don't need microtone and weird-ass scales that the criminally obsessed invent. But you do need to know all the scales you will use in jazz, which include major and minor, whole tone, half-step/whole-step diminished, altered dominant, pentatonic (major and minor), and blues scales (major and minor). They need to be second nature.

And yeah, you should have them down equally in all 12 keys. But in reality, in jazz we don't often have to play in 6-7 sharps or flats. But 5 sharps or flats, yeah. So, on one side of the circle of 5ths/4ths, you want to lean the flat scales up to Db (C, F, Bb, Eb, Ab and Db), and on the other side your sharp scales up to B (C, G, D, A, E, B).

Scales in every usable key should be automatic. You shouldn't have to even think about them. Get on it!

Thank y'all. I will use the info to the best of my ability.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 7:11 pm
Now, it's true that some folks do play nearly identical solos every time the play the same tune. And when you're playing the same tune every night for years, you do tend to settle over time on licks and shapes that work well. But Billy wasn't like that, at all. Every night was a new adventure. LOL!

I read an interview with Ravi Shankar. It was long ago, I might misremember slightly. But basically they asked him if he played his sitar pieces the same way every time or if they were largely improvised. He replied he played it exactly the same. Then they showed him that in two different recordings he was playing different notes. His answer was no, they're exactly the same. Those different notes don't matter.

Yes the scales should be memorised. I teach children from 8 to 20 years old. And scales are so big part of all music today and in history, theory and daily practice . It's a ground floor of all music anywhere in the world. Of course with children we start in the small side of it. When teaching small children I often get a reminder. I should follow my own advices.

Leif

Buddy Baker's method provides a systematic way of learning major, natural, harmonic, & melodic minor, whole tone, and diminished scales plus arpeggios. Highly recommended if you're just starting out your scale journey or if you need a refresher.

Thanks y'all for the replies.

99.9% of my playing is off the guitar/keyboard players chord sheet. I’d be lost with my improv playing if i didn’t have my scales memorized. I normally swap between trumpet, trombone, euph, and an occasional French horn on any given day.

BrassSection wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:10 pm 99.9% of my playing is off the guitar/keyboard players chord sheet. I’d be lost with my improv playing if i didn’t have my scales memorized. I normally swap between trumpet, trombone, euph, and an occasional French horn on any given day.

I am just starting to learn the major scales. I practice transposing treble clef piano hymns on my trombone. I am working on the major scales and then when I have them memorized I will do the minors, etc. I am impressed with people who can improvise, especially on multiple instruments, probably because improvising is still a mystery to me. My strength is in sight reading. I believe my trombone instructor will help me get a handle on how to go about learning to improvise.

Thom wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:21 pm My strength is in sight reading. I believe my trombone instructor will help me get a handle on how to go about learning to improvise.

Sight reading never was my forte, but seems to be improving with age. Joined a community band for a Christmas concert. Trumpet and trombones a plenty, so I signed up on euphonium. Surprised myself the first practice, even nailed The Halleujah Chorus first time thru.

Good luck on your journey.

BrassSection wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 5:41 pm

Thom wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:21 pm My strength is in sight reading. I believe my trombone instructor will help me get a handle on how to go about learning to improvise.

Sight reading never was my forte, but seems to be improving with age. Joined a community band for a Christmas concert. Trumpet and trombones a plenty, so I signed up on euphonium. Surprised myself the first practice, even nailed The Halleujah Chorus first time thru.

Good luck on your journey.

Thnks

Rather than worrying about trying to get ALL the scales memorized quickly, I think you should prioritize which scales you practice. And include the chord arpeggio too (extended to the 7th or 9th).

Blues scales and pentatonic scales are pretty nice ones to learn, as they contain fewer notes to memorize. They also will give the melodies you come up with a nice contour, as they will contain both steps and leaps naturally.

Personally, I'd suggest you prioritize major scales and two of the modes, dorian (starts on the 2nd degree of the major scale) and mixolydian (starts on the 5th degree of the major scales). I'd also suggest that you think of the two modes according to their root pitch, not the parent major scales, as that will help you get a handle on the chords that they fit and other color tones a little more intuitively. For example, think of D dorian as a D major scale with a lowered 3rd and 7th instead of a C major scale starting on D.

And as you're working through those three different scales, think about practicing them in the context of a ii-V-I progression (which does put all three in the same key signature). For example, practice a D dorian/Dmin9 chord arpeggio, followed by G mixolydian/G9 chord, followed by C major/Cmaj9 chord.

I don't want to discourage you from practicing the 3 basic minor scales, but they are not so useful for jazz improvisation. For practicing in minor keys I'd suggest starting with the "jazz melodic" minor scale. That scale is like a major scale with just a lowered 3rd. Or another way to think about it is that it is a melodic minor scale ascending, but you keep the raised 6th and 7th on the way down too. If that's your tonic of a minor ii-V-i progression then practice the locrian/half diminished chord, and the "altered dominant scale."

Another reason why I suggest the jazz melodic minor scale is because it can be used to help you learn the altered dominant scale. Another name for that scale I sometimes hear is the "super locrian" mode. Locrian mode is like a major scale beginning on the 7th degree. a "super locrian" is like the jazz melodic minor scale beginning on the 7th degree.

For example, B altered dominant (or "super locrian" or "diminished whole tone scale, they are the same thing) would be a C jazz melodic minor scale, starting on B.

B, C, D, Eb (D#, really), F, G, A, B.

That gives you the root, major 3rd, and dominant 7th of the chord. All the other pitches in it are alterations of the 5th and 9th (b5, #5, b9, #9).

But I'd concentrate on the major ii-V-I progression first, then gradually start working on the minors (and other scales as they come up). Lightly touch on all the keys, but you can pick keys that you're more likely to play on to focus more on at first. When you get very comfortable in one key it becomes easier to pick up on other keys, with later focus and attention.

Dave

Thank y'all

Just came across this and thought it might be useful. I'd memorize all of these, starting with the first and just going through them.


This is a good start.

Yes, and then get off the roots and start the scales in roughly the same place on the horn, and listen to their melodies. It's just convention to start them on a root. If you have to, play the root, then move up to the middle of the horn and play the scale from there, from whatever starting note is convenient. Get the SOUND of the thing in your head, not so much the name. Move to other parts of the horn and repeat.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 7:11 pm

Thom wrote: ↑Tue Dec 03, 2024 12:22 pm Yes, it is my understanding that Bill Watrous (sp?) wrote and memorized his solos. I have thought about trying that after I get back in shape and learn the slide really well. I played mostly tuba and bass bone and never really learned a straight tenor properly.

Yeah, I played with Watrous for 15 years. He was a friend. Trust me when I say your understanding is incorrect. Not even close. Who in the world told you that?

Now, it's true that some folks do play nearly identical solos every time the play the same tune. And when you're playing the same tune every night for years, you do tend to settle over time on licks and shapes that work well. But Billy wasn't like that, at all. Every night was a new adventure. LOL!

Hell, Bill used to talk about his days in the Navy Band, and how he didn't start out being able to read worth a damn. He played from the heart and mind, not from the page. I worked with him occasionally, and he rarely played the same thing twice the same way.

dershem wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2025 11:47 am
Hell, Bill used to talk about his days in the Navy Band, and how he didn't start out being able to read worth a damn. He played from the heart and mind, not from the page. I worked with him occasionally, and he rarely played the same thing twice the same way.

Fun fact: everyone I ever met who was with Billy in his Navy days says he was just an ordinary player at the time. No indication he would ever be anything special. Sometime after the Navy, he morphed into the monster we all remember. I was at the Navy School of Music in 1973, several years after Bill was, and they had not yet then started talking about him. That changed a couple years later.

Not to say that Bill never repeated things. He had licks he played all the time. I heard them so many times I learned a lot of them through absorption.

Like many of us, he had a library of licks he pulled out and connected as he needed them. But he tended to change up, even on tunes he played a lot. He liked to live in the moment.
My old 'Uncle', Sandy Weishaupt, was his teacher at SOM, and played with a similar sound - round and full, and very melodic and sweet. He and Bill had good things to say about each other. But I remember talking to some cats he worked with in San Diego, when he played off-base, and they say they saw/heard the seed of what he would become later. He just didn't use them at work. Maybe he felt constrained somehow?

I built this tool a while back - it's a webapp that can render the most common modes and scales in any clef, in any key. I personally find it much easier to use than pages of sheet music or a long pdf writing them all out longhand.

https://scaleshed.com/modes

I really ought to get back to this - there's a ton of more useful stuff I'd like to build in this space. It's really rough-looking, but it's functional.