TromboneChat

It’s the holidays, so I have a bit of leisure time on my hands. Here is something that has been on my mind for years. It is something that is so predictable that I have accepted it as “fact,” when I know it is more conjecture. Here it goes……

Why do large bore tenor trombones (and smaller trombones as well) center under the pitch on low F in trigger first position, while bass trombones lock in on that pitch much more consistently? Another way to phrase the question……. Why does low F in 1st position require much more embouchure engagement on a large bore tenor when compared to a bass trombone?

Please don’t assume that this is something inadequate in my playing. I have been a professional player and teacher for 40 years. I know how to tune my F attachment appropriately. I know that there are intonation problems (third partial being sharp on many trombones) that make the C in trigger 1st position very different from the low F.

I am more interested in the acoustical reasons that make that low F different. For example: most large bore tenors have a .547 slide and a .562 valve section. That is a .015 difference. Most bass trombones have a .562 slide and a .593 or .594 valve area. That is a .031 or .032 difference. Would a greater differential on the large bore tenor make the low F on trigger lock in better? Have any manufacturers tried making a .547 tenor with a .572 or .577 F attachment? If yes, what detriment would it do to other pitches?

Let the banter begin! Meanwhile, I’m going to look at the music for my rehearsals and gigs this weekend to see which low Fs I will play in trigger 1st position and which will be played in 6th position.

They're the same for me. They both lock in.

I don't find the tuning of trigger F to be different on tenor or bass. Same length of pipe makes same pitch, the physics is not complicated.

The general sound and response in that register of course is different on tenors and basses, especially with the different valves. Maybe what you're experiencing is that something else you're doing to compensate for the tighter response on tenor and get a tone that you like is then affecting the pitch.

Let the instrument tell you where it is. For me it's fine on both, and on small bore with F. Bass can cover up sins in low register approach, though- large tenor especially was really bad for me for a long time in that register.

I'm not sure I accept your premise that "large bore tenor trombones (and smaller trombones as well) center under the pitch on low F in trigger first position, while bass trombones lock in on that pitch much more consistently." I have not found that to be true for me, and certainly not as a general trend, at least for the population of people I play with.

But I will say something controversial, which is that I disfavor playing F in 1st, except in something quick and passing, because I think those notes tend to both sound and slot better on an open horn without deploying the trigger, on both large tenor and bass trombones pretty much across the board. I don't use the trigger as a crutch or for laziness. If I can play that F in 6th, it's my preference. My experience is that the trigger notes start to sound better when you get to Eb and below. (This is a general observation about the proclivities of horns, not of players. I know good players can make that F speak well in 1st.)

Yes agree 100%

I feel more or less the same. low F on the attachment on large tenor seems to have substantially more resistance than "expected".

However I think in comparison a large part of the equation is the different mouthpiece.

Plus: I totally do not practice that range on tenor. I know however that with a little practice I would get it well under control. whenever needed.

On all of my trigger trombones F in 6th and C in 6th are in different positions. Same goes for trigger 1st. If I set T1 so F is in tune, C is sharp. If C is in tune F is flat.

So on my bass I'd tune my low F to be in tune in T1 and play C about ½" (1 cm) out. On my tenors, I'd tune C in 1st and avoid using the trigger for low F. Not much of a problem since very few of my tenor parts needed low F anyway and I could always play them in 6th. Besides, I can fix the F in T1 a bit by compressing my slide springs (something you may not have).

Hello!

What Bruce says could be the reason why they are different. I too have used different tunings for my tenor trombones and basses in the past, but I do not tune different anymore since I find it difficult to remember to adjust the trigger notes differently, and I do need that F on V1 sometimes on tenor, more often than that low C on V6, and I'm also using factitious notes more nowdays or I temporarily pull the tuningslide for a low C. This means I only pull if it appears exposed in a tenor part just as I would do on a single trigger bass.

For me:
On my horns the "F" lock in on both 6:th and V1 but they feel different and are a bit different in character. Is that what you mean? I prefer F on the open horn on sixth position on any trombone when convenient. The reason is I think it is a bit more crisp there. This goes for both tenor and bass. Why this is I have no idea.
Some say the F on V1 is flat and then of course it will not lock in, but I do not tune my horn like that. On open horn I tune Bb far away from the bumper and F on V1 against the bumper or if the horn has springs I push all the way which allow me to have the tuningslide in the trigger section pulled about an inch. This can give me an in tune low C on V6 with very little lip-bending.

To sum: No difference between tenor and bass trombones for me, so the F locks in equally well on both but it has a slight different character. If I compare 6th pos and V1, it is more crisp on 6th.

Now, why is that?

It could be the bore size is infact a tad smaller when we play that F on 6:th pos. When the slide is fully extended for F on sixth position a larger extent of the total horn becames that boresize . The slide has on my trombones (whis is not dual bore) a slight smaller diameter compared to the valvesection. The valve section with bigger diameter is on the other hand used in a greater percentage if I play the F on pos V1. This makes the instrument a tad larger over all because the more narrow tubes of the main slide is less used.

A King 6B "Duo Gravis" is known to have the same measurement in the valve section as it has in the slide section so if this theory is correct the F's should be more equal on such a horn.

Any physics around?

/Tom

BP Leonard (Sesquitone here on TC) wrote an article on that subject many years ago and if he sees this I'm sure he will comment.
Acoustically, F on.the slide and F with the trgger are not the same. In 6th position, you have .547 in the top slide tube, a larger bore through the outer slide, and back to .547 in the bottom inner slide tube. In 1st with the trigger, you have .547 through both slide tubes (with just the crook being larger) and then whatever bore size the F attachment is. So they are always going to be different.

The way I see it, the return to .547 with 6th position makes it act more like .547 all the way, and gives it more focus.

As the OP on this topic, I am still looking for an acoustical answer. I am not looking for performance solutions. I have no problem playing low F in trigger 1st position in tune with the tone quality that I want on both tenor and bass. I figured out how to do that decades ago and have been successfully teaching students how to achieve it for decades as well.

If you feel that your trigger low F feels and reacts the same on both large bore tenor trombone and bass trombone, then your feedback here might be of little value. Consider yourself rather fortunate that this is something that you never needed to address in your playing.

For the sake of clarification, I think I should rephrase my original point. My original post said that large bore tenors tend to “center under pitch” on the low F in trigger 1st. Maybe I should have stated “easily drops under the center of pitch.”

This is a huge problem for students and novices on the instrument. Thus, I am seeking an ACOUSTICAL EXPLANATION (not pedagogy) for something that is very real for my students. My reason for seeking this is that when students ask me “why does that happen?” I would like to have a better answer than “that’s just the way it is.”

I usually have about 25 students in my studio. In an average year, I see at least 3 or 4 students make the transition from straight trombone to a trigger trombone (usually a .525 or .547 bore). At least 80% or more of these students produce an E-natural or E-flat with trigger in 1st position for their attempts. This pitch problem can stick around for a week or two before it begins to improve. Sometimes, the correction in pitch takes months before I observe the pitch starting to rise (usually a work-ethic-challenged student). Granted, much of this is their undeveloped sense of pitch.

I am also a repair technician. On several occasions, community-band-type players have brought me F-attachment trombones (usually.547 bore) and complained that the low F in trigger first position played very flat. At that point, I switch from technician to teacher and explain/demonstrate that the instrument in that register requires much more air and “embouchure engagement” (I hate that term!) in order to play up to the intended pitch.

However, I do not see this problem on the bass trombone. I have put this theory to the test a few times. Just recently, I had an 8th grade student bring a Conn 88H to his lesson for the first time (it was an early Christmas present). It was this kid’s first experience on a trigger trombone. I always try to show students new to the trigger the options that are now available to them. I showed him the low F in trigger 1st (I even demonstrated so that he could hear the pitch). He proceeded to play a “low F” that was actually half way between an E-natural and an E-flat. I allowed him to play a little longer to settle on the instrument. After about 9 or 10 minutes, I asked him to try a low F on my Bach 50 single trigger bass trombone with a 2G mouthpiece. Even though he was barely able to hold the horn, he was able to lock in on that low F instantly!

I have done this same experiment with several students and generally get the same result…..at a minimum, their F on the bass trombone moves up about a 1/4 to 1/2 step. So again, I am not looking for a performance solution, I figured assorted ways to coach students through this long ago. I am more interested in an acoustical explanation. Also, something other than….the trombone player needs to have a mouthpiece that is better matched acoustically to the instrument. Thank you.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 8:46 am As the OP on this topic, I am still looking for an acoustical answer. I am not looking for performance solutions. I have no problem playing low F in trigger 1st position in tune with the tone quality that I want on both tenor and bass. I figured out how to do that decades ago and have been successfully teaching students how to achieve it for decades as well.

If you feel that your trigger low F feels and reacts the same on both large bore tenor trombone and bass trombone, then your feedback here might be of little value. Consider yourself rather fortunate that this is something that you never needed to address in your playing.

For the sake of clarification, I think I should rephrase my original point. My original post said that large bore tenors tend to “center under pitch” on the low F in trigger 1st. Maybe I should have stated “easily drops under the center of pitch.”

This is a huge problem for students and novices on the instrument. Thus, I am seeking an ACOUSTICAL EXPLANATION (not pedagogy) for something that is very real for my students. My reason for seeking this is that when students ask me “why does that happen?” I would like to have a better answer than “that’s just the way it is.”

I usually have about 25 students in my studio. In an average year, I see at least 3 or 4 students make the transition from straight trombone to a trigger trombone (usually a .525 or .547 bore). At least 80% or more of these students produce an E-natural or E-flat with trigger in 1st position for their attempts. This pitch problem can stick around for a week or two before it begins to improve. Sometimes, the correction in pitch takes months before I observe the pitch starting to rise (usually a work-ethic-challenged student). Granted, much of this is their undeveloped sense of pitch.

I am also a repair technician. On several occasions, community-band-type players have brought me F-attachment trombones (usually.547 bore) and complained that the low F in trigger first position played very flat. At that point, I switch from technician to teacher and explain/demonstrate that the instrument in that register requires much more air and “embouchure engagement” (I hate that term!) in order to play up to the intended pitch.

However, I do not see this problem on the bass trombone. I have put this theory to the test a few times. Just recently, I had an 8th grade student bring a Conn 88H to his lesson for the first time (it was an early Christmas present). It was this kid’s first experience on a trigger trombone. I always try to show students new to the trigger the options that are now available to them. I showed him the low F in trigger 1st (I even demonstrated so that he could hear the pitch). He proceeded to play a “low F” that was actually half way between an E-natural and an E-flat. I allowed him to play a little longer to settle on the instrument. After about 9 or 10 minutes, I asked him to try a low F on my Bach 50 single trigger bass trombone with a 2G mouthpiece. Even though he was barely able to hold the horn, he was able to lock in on that low F instantly!

I have done this same experiment with several students and generally get the same result…..at a minimum, their F on the bass trombone moves up about a 1/4 to 1/2 step. So again, I am not looking for a performance solution, I figured assorted ways to coach students through this long ago. I am more interested in an acoustical explanation. Also, something other than….the trombone player needs to have a mouthpiece that is better matched acoustically to the instrument. Thank you.

The last two posts before your last post do offer a theory why the F on 6:th and V1 are different. The instrument isn't quite the same dimension for short. It could mean you need to play them differently, but that isn't something I know I do consciously, but maybe I do it anyhow.
We do things different, and this is probably what explains why some do not think of the F on V1 on their tenors as flat.

Some do not think there is a difference between bass and tenor either if we talk intonation, including myself. One thing that has to do with the "hard" physics (metal) of the instruments that may explain why I don't experience the flat F problem on my horns is the way I tune them. This changes them physically because slides are pushed/pulled and we know that lengths differ. My Bb on the open horn is far out on the slide and I think this helps me to make that F on the trigger V1 in tune in a closed first position. I remember I did experience the problem you describe when I was younger, but it was long ago and it could be many reasons. It could be I was too loose in my emboushure or it could be I used to tune my Bb on the open horn close to the bumpers. Personally I think the tuning was what fixed it. If I tune Bb against the bumper again then who knows, the F on V1 might play flat for me once again. Anyhow I do not have the problem after I changed the way I tune, but to be fair my emboushure has also developed. But the emboushure is a part of the "soft" ingredients of our playing, and I guess thats not what we should discuss.

Maybe that's just me, but something solved this for me. If anyone experiment with this please tell if it helps. If you change the way you tune then of course you need to relearn all positions, and seventh position might be were the slide falls off.

We still wait for the physicians to give input on this.. Consider this as fiction until proven. Anyone can do as they like with information.

/Tom

Are these students "leaning into" the valve note to push through the resistance, or are they just relaxing and "letting it happen"? As Doug mentions, valve F and 6th F are not the same note, and I think the difference is more pronounced on smaller equipment.
Unless your students' instruments are truly exceptional, the only way to make those two notes sound the same is to play them differently.

Well, I think it's both. The horns are different and respond different... and younger/less developed players also don't play it very well, and bass is more forgiving. All those things can be true.

The design focus for the .547 tenor is not the range below the staff. Sure, some are better than others, and modern horns are freaky good at them, but it's not where the effort is being spent. What that physically means, I don't know, but I think it's pretty clear that basses are better in that range because they SHOULD be.

Have you tried the Markey exercises with these students? Glissing down to F and then quickly going to the valve F really highlights any differences, and provides a sound concept for what the valve F should sound like.

Tom……. that is performance solution. I use that same type of solution……playing 1st position off of the bumpers. I also teach that my students to do that.

There is also the standard intonation problem that the 3rd partial can be sharp (some trombones much more than others). Thus, trigger C is usually much farther out than trigger F. I get all that. Also part of that intonation issue is the fact that intonation adjustments are more pronounced the farther you go out on your slide (that’s another topic that should receive its own thread). Thus, the adjustments between a 2nd partial trigger 1st position (the equivalent of 6th position, which is rather far out on the slide) and 3rd partial trigger 1st are much more pronounced than adjustments on those same partials in regular 1st position.

I also understand that the valve geometrics determine how pronounced this problem can be. I have over 25 .547 bore trombones. I make them and tend to hold on to them because I like particular things about each of them. I usually only sell them to create storage space for new horns that I have made. Many of my large bore tenors are superb and implement high grade replacement valves (Rotax, Instrument Innovations, Meinlschmidt, multiple axial valves, etc….). However, none of them has the ease of playing on a low F in trigger 1st that ALL of my bass trombones have (I have 5 single valve basses and 5 double valve basses). My tenors just require a little more engagement (again, I hate that term) on that pitch. I am trying to figure out the equation, if there is one, that makes that particular pitch (and to a lesser extent, the E natural) require more attention on the tenor. I have also done extensive experimentation with mouthpieces, literally dozens with each trombone. I favor large mouthpieces with my .547 bore horns (usually in the Bach 2G range) and those tend to do best in that low F trigger register. As I go through smaller mouthpieces …….4G, 5G, 6.5AL, the problem gets worse.

There might not be an answer to this. Possibly…..”that’s just the way it is” might be my permanent answer. I think there are many mysteries about our instrument. Don’t get me started on high A-flat (3rd position in the 8th partial) and high D (1st position in the 10th partial). A professional trombonist warned me about those pitches back in 1984 and they are still the notes that I chip the most. Those are also the pitches that I include in my daily repetitions.

I do understand that I have exposed my trombone hoarding problem! I am in the midst of multiple-step treatment and my wife keeps my problem in check because she hates clutter. The moment that I cannot store all of my trombones in our basement closet (houses the heating/air conditioning unit), is the moment she insists that one of my trombones goes for sale.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 8:46 amIf you feel that your trigger low F feels and reacts the same on both large bore tenor trombone and bass trombone, then your feedback here might be of little value. Consider yourself rather fortunate that this is something that you never needed to address in your playing.

No one has said that trigger F feels and reacts the same on tenor and bass - of course it doesn't. Several people have said, correctly, that it tunes the same. I don't understand why you want to conflate these things.

For the sake of clarification, I think I should rephrase my original point. My original post said that large bore tenors tend to “center under pitch” on the low F in trigger 1st. Maybe I should have stated “easily drops under the center of pitch.”

Because something else you're doing (consciously or not) to compensate for the tenor's tighter response in that register also has the effect of lowering the pitch. On a more open-blowing instrument where trigger F feels easier, the trombonist is naturally going to play closer to the pitch center.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 8:46 am If you feel that your trigger low F feels and reacts the same on both large bore tenor trombone and bass trombone, then your feedback here might be of little value.

Oh, okay. Don't feel bad, I'm used to having my thoughts "be of little value" around here.

I'm so high on the CL2000 valve and open wrap because of the way it feels and reacts.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 9:52 am Well, I think it's both. The horns are different and respond different... and younger/less developed players also don't play it very well, and bass is more forgiving. All those things can be true.

The design focus for the .547 tenor is not the range below the staff. Sure, some are better than others, and modern horns are freaky good at them, but it's not where the effort is being spent. What that physically means, I don't know, but I think it's pretty clear that basses are better in that range because they SHOULD be.

This makes sense to me and it is well-stated. You also bring up a point that touches on my approach to the large-bore tenor. I have been placed in many professional situations in which I was contracted to play tenor trombone. When I show up for the rehearsal or gig, they hand me a bass trombone part. It happened to me many times when I was young. Thus, I learned to be more flexible with the low range on my .547 bore horns. For years, I have practiced scales, arpeggios and such that use the trigger notes and false notes in that register. My goal has been to create a seamless transition from pedal to false notes and trigger notes into the more typical register of the tenor trombone. Thus, I do actually use that register much more than the average tenor trombonist. As you would probably state it…… I use the tenor trombone in the low register beyond its original intent.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 10:19 am

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 8:46 am If you feel that your trigger low F feels and reacts the same on both large bore tenor trombone and bass trombone, then your feedback here might be of little value.

Oh, okay. Don't feel bad, I'm used to having my thoughts "be of little value" around here.

I'm so high on the CL2000 valve and open wrap because of the way it feels and reacts.

I understand but it isn't at all true Keep the good post coming. I hear you, and I appreciate a post of any professional. We can read!

/Tom

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 9:49 am
Why do large bore tenor trombones (and smaller trombones as well) center under the pitch on low F in trigger first position, while bass trombones lock in on that pitch much more consistently?

Without hearing what is going on, and acoustically speaking, you can't "center under pitch". You can only center a note to whatever set of harmonics (and their frequencies) is determined by the length of the horn. If you're "centered but under pitch", then what you're really saying is that you're centered but under your desired pitch.

If you lock into a pitch, or "center" on the pitch, you are having your chops resonate with the pitch as determined by the length of the instrument, valve or no. Everyone here would probably agree that you can center pitches on the open horn, and you can center pitches on the F side too. Like you say, you are centered, but under the desired pitch. Likewise, if someone isn't centered or locked in on a pitch, it is highly likely that they are lipping the note to be where they want it, and fighting the slot, "center", tube length, etc.

If the above concept is generally agreeable, then the acoustic reason why the F "centers" or locks in lower in pitch in 1st than in 6th position is one of these reasons:

1. The F attachment is tuned flat, pulled too far out. Highly likely, since centering a note involves locking into the pitch as determined by overall length if the horn.
2. Modern basses have a huge slot, and you can lip pitches without even realizing it. Tenors generally have well defined slotting, so it's harder to not realize you're out of the slot. There was just a whole thread about how students do not realize they aren't centered on anything with modern basses.
3. The F attachment is tuned for F against the bumpers, but the player plays off the bumpers out of habit for that note.
4. There is no preconceived idea of positions past 1st, so subconsciously adjustments are made with the slide to tune the note after it is centered in 6th. However, knowledge that the F attachment is 100% "in tune" in 1st gets in the way of this adjustment, as do the bumpers. Combine this with 1 or more of the other reasons above, and you get a flat F in 1st.

Another way to phrase the question……. Why does low F in 1st position require much more embouchure engagement on a large bore tenor when compared to a bass trombone?

This is a different question. But it likely is because the note needs to be lipped to be in tune for one or more of the reasons above. Lipping pitches may be another way of describing embouchure engagement.

Hey Folks,

I appreciate your posts and the effort that you have put into your responses. I also apologize if my reactions have seemed to be edgy. I guess I am not getting the input that I was expecting….. or hoping to get.

I feel that this type of forum can make certain topics and conversations tricky. I have seen other members struggle to get their point through in the past and I feel their pain.

I knew this was a topic that could possibly go nowhere fast because I have had the same problem with this topic in live conversations with other professional trombonists. Sometimes the response was “I have no idea what you are talking about” or “sounds like the problem is all in your head.” Other times, the reaction was “that is something that I wrestled with for many years” or “I also struggle to get my students to hear the issue and work to improve it.”

Again, I am sorry if I have responded in a frustrated way. I was hoping to NOT get answers that focused on the pedagogy or ways to fix the issue in a student’s playing. I have taught my way through this issue for many years and can continue to do the same. Maybe the problem is that my post originated in “Teaching and Learning.”

For me this is an anomaly for a particular type of trombone. It is an anomaly that is unique within our entire brass family. There are numerous examples of pitch problems (in parallel registers) going the opposite direction on other brass instruments.

I was searching for a possible explanation for my students and some possible ways to correct what I see as an issue on certain trombone designs. I guess the best way to leave this is….as a whole, the trombone is an anomaly. Actually, all instruments are.

Make a video of what is going on to help us

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 11:38 am

Another way to phrase the question……. Why does low F in 1st position require much more embouchure engagement on a large bore tenor when compared to a bass trombone?

This is a different question. But it likely is because the note needs to be lipped to be in tune for one or more of the reasons above. Lipping pitches may be another way of describing embouchure engagement.

Hi Harrison,

Thanks for revisiting the topic. Yes, the part that is quoted above is much more on topic. I think the way I used terms (in particular…..”centering”) in my original post was very confusing and I apologize for that.

I think you make some valid points. Now I want to throw a wrench into you engine. I have a couple of bass trombones that slot extremely tight. One of them (an Elkhart Conn 72H) slots much tighter than almost all of my large bore tenors. For this reason, it gets limited use…..Haydn’s Creation and a few other lighter works. Even though it slots very tight, the low F is very easy to center on low F with almost no additional engagement (compared to the B-flat just above it.

If you read my previous post, you will see that I believe instruments can be anomalies. Under your theory, that 72H would be an anomaly.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:17 pm Make a video of what is going on to help us

Ok, I'll speak up for Crazy here. What he talks about is REALLY, really common, even into college players. I've made videos about large tenor low range because multiple people requested it.

I have also heard pros talk about how they don't play F in first because it's flat.

I guess I'm in the “I have no idea what you are talking about" camp.

My experience is that every note on the trombone has its own individual center and intonation requirement. Every note requires its own embouchure and slide placement to sound "correct" and in-tune, and as the slide goes out the sound of every note in that partial changes. I see it as inherent to the instrument, but I don't see it as unique to the V-1 low F in 1st.

So, yeah, my input would have little value to you, since you're coming from a particular perspective and set of assumptions that you want to stay within, and I'm not there. Plus, like Aidan, I see it as a mix of horn physics and pedagogy, and they cannot in my mind be separated.

And now I'll continue to read to learn, but comment no further.

Excerpts from Benny Leonard's paper " Improving Attachment Intonation and Tone Quality," May 1998

What appears to be happening, acoustically, is the following. Perturbations in the cross-sectional area at particular locations along a sound path can profoundly affect the relative intonation of the various "harmonics."
...
Small localized cross-sectional area perturbations most strongly affect the second harmonic (i,e., an octave above the fundamental "pedal") and the third harmonic. The pedal is relatively insensitive because there is no internal pressure node. Higher harmonics are fairly stable because there are several internal pressure nodes, spaced along the sound path. The second harmonic (one internal pressure node) and third harmonic (two internal pressure nodes) are most vulnerable. If a small increase in cross-sectional area occurs at roughly one-third of the sound-path length into the instrument, the second harmonic will tend to be sharpened and the third harmonic slightly flattened relative to the upper harmonics. This tends to occur, for example, on the slide-alone notes in outer positions. However, this is easily corrected for by slight adjustments of the slide position. Tone quality does not suffer because resonant peaks are still close enough to a harmonic series to give synchronous reinforcement from the upper partials.

A perturbational increase in cross-sectional area at roughly two-thirds of the sound-path length (i.e., in the vicinity of the attachment) has the opposite effect: the second harmonic becomes flat and the third harmonic quite sharp and uncentered. In this case, tone quality suffers because there is enough distortion of the relative frequencies of the resonance peaks to destroy some of the natural reinforcement of the upper partials. The result is a "dull" or "stuffy" tone quality (i.e., lack of acoustic energy in the upper partials). The problem is most noticeable in the first few attachment positions. For the outer attachment positions, there is some compensation from the mechanism described in the previous paragraph: tone quality improves. Unfortunately, the most useful attachment-alternates in the tenor range (using the traditional Bb/F tuning) are attachment-harmonics two and three in attachment positions one and two - the most strongly affected notes!

====
My typing is really slow, so I won't copy the rest, but basically he argues that the attachment bore size should be the same as the slide bore because it improves the harmonics, and a larger attachment bore make the problem worse. And dual bore slides have less issues with that.

It's all due to where pressure nodes occur on the problem notes.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:17 pm Make a video of what is going on to help us

Well, that's a good idea. There are two obstacles. 1. I am terrible with technology. Thus, creating a "simple" 4 or 5 minute video would probably take me hours. And that doesn't include trying to attach the video to the thread on Trombonechat! 2. Doing such a project would involve pulling out at least 3 or 4 tenors and 3 or 4 bass trombones. That would be fun. But cleaning them up, swabbing them and vacuuming out the moisture (to prepare the horns for storage again) would be extremely time consuming.

If we get a big snow storm in the next couple of weeks, that might be the opportunity to do such a project!

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:20 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:17 pm Make a video of what is going on to help us

Ok, I'll speak up for Crazy here. What he talks about is REALLY, really common, even into college players. I've made videos about large tenor low range because multiple people requested it.

I have also heard pros talk about how they don't play F in first because it's flat.

Thank you Aidan! At least I know I am not going insane now!

Something for all to consider..... There are many different types of players in the world. I have always been the thinker/problem solver. That sounds better than saying I am the "intellectual type" because I am sure that is not true. I usually understood everything immediately, but spent hours in the practice room trying to find a way to make things happen musically. I knew what the end product was supposed to be, but it sometimes did not come to me automatically or instantly. Thus, I had to analyze EVERYTHING to figure out a way of making the music happen. Most of the time my methodology worked very well. Other times, I thought about things too much and it took my teacher saying...."just play the piece kid" to get to the next level.

There are those who are natural musicians. Not in the sense that EVERYTHING was easy, but certain things that others need months to accomplish would come instantly for them. A great example: When I was a student at Oberlin, the orchestral excerpts that had high D's and E-flats (Brahms 2nd, Also Sprach, Symphony Fantastique, Schumann Rhenish, etc...) were a bitch for me. I remember being so proud when I was able to play them repeatedly and consistently that I wanted to demonstrate my accomplishments to my classmate - Duane Smith (hope you are doing well Duane!). Duane was very cordial. He listened and congratulated me. I asked him "what have you been working on?" He answered, "I have been working on my high register as well." Then he proceeded to play every one of those same excerpts up an octave. He didn't think about it too much. He just played!

While events like that were frustrating, I do think that we need different kinds of different players in the world. Even though I struggled with things that others were able to play automatically, I had a good head on my shoulders and others recognized that. Many times at Oberlin, other musicians came to me in order to figure out some challenging rhythms or pitch patterns.

What is my point? If this trigger low F has never been an issue for you, I really do mean it when I say "Kudos to you!" It is one less thing to worry about in life, and that is a good thing. However, please don't think that other people are crazy because they mention a concern that you have never heard of. I can guarantee you that this is a HUGE ISSUE for many players. Having taught lessons since 1984, I see and hear it constantly and I am rather surprised that many of you have not known about this. Right now, it would be appropriate to end this post with the ending of Amadeus. "Mediocrities Everywhere. I absolve you!" If you listen, you can hear Duane Smith laughing at me just before the credits.



Hey....I figured out how to copy a video link!

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:21 pm I guess I'm in the “I have no idea what you are talking about" camp.

My experience is that every note on the trombone has its own individual center and intonation requirement. Every note requires its own embouchure and slide placement to sound "correct" and in-tune, and as the slide goes out the sound of every note in that partial changes. I see it as inherent to the instrument, but I don't see it as unique to the V-1 low F in 1st.

So, yeah, my input would have little value to you, since you're coming from a particular perspective and set of assumptions that you want to stay within, and I'm not there. Plus, like Aidan, I see it as a mix of horn physics and pedagogy, and they cannot in my mind be separated.

And now I'll continue to read to learn, but comment no further.

I appreciate your thoughtful response Dana. I do value your input, so please feel free to comment.

I agree that every note requires its own embouchure and slide placement. That's just the nature of the beast with a trombone. However, I (and I think that many others) always try to find ways to play across the vast spectrum of sounds on the instrument with the least amount of shifting and moving around. Thus, I have been on a decades-long quest to find a large-bore trombone that plays effortlessly between other pitches and that low F in trigger 1st position.

I am glad to say that many of the modern horns have made strides in fixing this problem. I have made a couple of horns myself that have done well on this obstacle as well. I think I am also trying to figure out "WHY" it is a problem. I think Doug might have found something that offers an explanation. I plan to comment on that next.

Anyway, thanks again Dana!

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 1:21 pm Excerpts from Benny Leonard's paper " Improving Attachment Intonation and Tone Quality," May 1998

What appears to be happening, acoustically, is the following. Perturbations in the cross-sectional area at particular locations along a sound path can profoundly affect the relative intonation of the various "harmonics."
...
Small localized cross-sectional area perturbations most strongly affect the second harmonic (i,e., an octave above the fundamental "pedal") and the third harmonic. The pedal is relatively insensitive because there is no internal pressure node. Higher harmonics are fairly stable because there are several internal pressure nodes, spaced along the sound path. The second harmonic (one internal pressure node) and third harmonic (two internal pressure nodes) are most vulnerable. If a small increase in cross-sectional area occurs at roughly one-third of the sound-path length into the instrument, the second harmonic will tend to be sharpened and the third harmonic slightly flattened relative to the upper harmonics. This tends to occur, for example, on the slide-alone notes in outer positions. However, this is easily corrected for by slight adjustments of the slide position. Tone quality does not suffer because resonant peaks are still close enough to a harmonic series to give synchronous reinforcement from the upper partials.

A perturbational increase in cross-sectional area at roughly two-thirds of the sound-path length (i.e., in the vicinity of the attachment) has the opposite effect: the second harmonic becomes flat and the third harmonic quite sharp and uncentered. In this case, tone quality suffers because there is enough distortion of the relative frequencies of the resonance peaks to destroy some of the natural reinforcement of the upper partials. The result is a "dull" or "stuffy" tone quality (i.e., lack of acoustic energy in the upper partials). The problem is most noticeable in the first few attachment positions. For the outer attachment positions, there is some compensation from the mechanism described in the previous paragraph: tone quality improves. Unfortunately, the most useful attachment-alternates in the tenor range (using the traditional Bb/F tuning) are attachment-harmonics two and three in attachment positions one and two - the most strongly affected notes!

====
My typing is really slow, so I won't copy the rest, but basically he argues that the attachment bore size should be the same as the slide bore because it improves the harmonics, and a larger attachment bore make the problem worse. And dual bore slides have less issues with that.

It's all due to where pressure nodes occur on the problem notes.

This is a breakthrough for me. Thank you very much Doug. I am assuming that this is the same Benny Leonard that is "Sequitone" on TromboneChat. I would like to read further on this.

My initial reaction is that this also explains a couple of other problems that have been present in trombone models over the last 25 years. For example, one of the biggest complaints about the Bach K-valve has been that the mid-range F (third harmonic) can be very dull on some of the K-valve horns. The same complaint was frequent about the Monster Valve horn.....the Holton TR-140. On both of those models the valve or part of the valve was farther back on the gooseneck. At that point, the pertubational cross section would be interrupted at approximately the two-thirds point of the horn. Thus, the third harmonic would be funky.

Thanks again Doug. Thank you Benny, if you are watching this thread. ...and thank you to everyone else for being patient!

Not to be a Devil's advocate, but this might NOT explain why most bass trombones do so well at locking in on that low F in trigger 1st position.

I suspect the explanation is that on bass, the open horn response is more similar to the attachment so you don't notice much difference.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:20 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:17 pm Make a video of what is going on to help us

Ok, I'll speak up for Crazy here. What he talks about is REALLY, really common, even into college players. I've made videos about large tenor low range because multiple people requested it.

I have also heard pros talk about how they don't play F in first because it's flat.

I think he's talking about something else. I've also done a video on that same topic, prompted by the same discussion on the old forum -- the only way to have a flat F in 1st, with the f attachment pushed in all the way and it still being flat, is to have your main tuning slide pulled way out, like so many college students do. If you push everything in the F will be sharp.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 3:08 pm I think he's talking about something else. I've also done a video on that same topic, prompted by the same discussion on the old forum -- the only way to have a flat F in 1st, with the f attachment pushed in all the way and it still being flat, is to have your main tuning slide pulled way out, like so many college students do. If you push everything in the F will be sharp.

I think there is a minority of trombone players (and I was one) for whom low F in first position is flat even with every available tuning slide pushed completely in. This was true for me on every f attachment trombone I played (tenor or bass) and I noticed, over the years, other contributors on the chat and the old forum describing the same problem. It is not caused by lack of sufficient tension in the embouchure - if I would try to correct the pitch by "lipping it up", it would jump to the C above. My only guess is that it has something to do with the size and shape of the mouth cavity.

This is not a tuning slide issue. Let me find the easiest way to demonstrate this.....

Get your bass trombone and large-bore tenor out. For the sake of this experiment, let's try to have some intonation control factors. I am going to assume the "control" is that your 1st position is out about 1/2 inch from the bumpers. Your "control" could be very different. Whatever, you call your neutral 1st position....put it there. Most people play their trigger C out about another 1/2 to 3/4 inch out from there. It could be more, Now play the following note patterns at pp (yes, pianissimo shows the problem at its worst).

1. On your bass trombone, lip slur a whole note C in trigger 1st (which is likely out an additional 1/2 to 3/4 inch from your control) down to a whole note F in trigger 1st (back to your "control" position) without shifting your embouchure or jaw. Also try to avoid doing any major changes in your embouchure "engagement." Just keep the air flowing. Remember to play pianissimo. Again, you are allowed to move your slide back to the "control" position for the low F. On most bass trombones, playing this is quite easy.

2. On your large bore tenor, do the same thing. Again, play pianissimo and avoid any major changes in your embouchure, jaw, muscle engagement or air flow. Many players find this very tricky on the large bore tenor, especially when playing pianissimo. It usually needs an increase in air intensity, considerable embouchure engagement and/or moving the slide in from the control position or even up against the bumpers.

3. On your bass trombone, use a tuner to set 1st position B-flat (4th partial) perfectly in tune at your control position and set the trigger at perfectly in tune on the F in the mid-ridge at that same control position. Again, this "control" position could be vary between players. Also, I realize that many players do not set their triggers at a true perfect 4th, but please do it for the sake of this demonstration. Now slur a whole note LOW B-flat (1st no trigger) to a whole note LOW F in trigger 1st position. Stay in your control position without shifting your embouchure or jaw. Again, the best test of this skill is to do it pianissimo with no major changes in embouchure, jaw, muscle engagement or air flow. Since your valve has already been calibrated to a perfect 4th, you should be able to do this without shifting the slide. Most doublers are able to do this on their bass trombone with very little effort.

4. Now do the same process as #3, but on your large bore tenor. Use all of the same tuning parameters. This is usually much trickier on a large bore tenor. Most players must bring the slide all the way in because they are under the center of the pitch. Many must play louder on the low F in order to support the note up to the center of pitch. As players get louder, the ease of locking in on the low F will increase. Louder playing also lowers the need for embouchure engagement. These are things that are not needed as much on the bass trombone.

I know that this is a very wordy way to describe a simple process, so I apologize. I realize that #1 and #2 do not have a control factor for the F-attachment tuning slide placement. I wanted to leave some things at a comfort level for the trombonist.

I also realize that many players will automatically do some things that could change the control factors. Most likely, people will blow louder on the low F's and engage their embouchures much more on the low F's as well. I ask that you try to play the two different pitches in each exercise as I have described.....pianissimo, no shifting, no crescendos, little or no jaw movement, etc.... If done correctly, it should show the acoustical phenomenon that I am trying to describe.

Thank you!

I'll try it out, and report back. I will say, going from C to F while not adjusting the jaw, tongue or embouchure AND centering the F properly sounds impossible. Those things will move while centering notes during a gliss in the same partial.

Yes! I appreciate your open-mind approach. I am hoping that you experience the difference between bass trombone and large bore tenor that I am attempting to discuss. If not....oh well!

If forced to play a C to F (trigger) slur on a tenor trombone in a performance, I would likely move things around a little to ensure that the notes respond. While practicing, I aim to be very efficient in my playing. It involves practicing routines (and maybe eventually performing similar passages) with as little movement as possible. I see it as an extension of the Phil Teele pedal note philosophy.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 3:08 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Dec 27, 2024 12:20 pm

Ok, I'll speak up for Crazy here. What he talks about is REALLY, really common, even into college players. I've made videos about large tenor low range because multiple people requested it.

I have also heard pros talk about how they don't play F in first because it's flat.

I think he's talking about something else. I've also done a video on that same topic, prompted by the same discussion on the old forum -- the only way to have a flat F in 1st, with the f attachment pushed in all the way and it still being flat, is to have your main tuning slide pulled way out, like so many college students do. If you push everything in the F will be sharp.

Harrison, the majority of trombone players on the planet are not playing in the center of the pitch, especially in uncomfortable ranges like this F.

My uni trombone teacher, then the local symph bass trombonist, told me he played low F in first on his second valve in order to play it in tune.

Using the G-flat valve for that F is a common practice. However, must bass trombonists put the slide in flat 2nd. I think that many bass trombonists do it to avoid the dreaded F valve in 1st position. Possibly this is something that carried over from their big bore tenor training (the whole point of this thread). My primary reason for playing that F frequently in G-flat valve + flat 2nd on bass trombone is the flow of slide patterns.

I'd love to add a thought, though this doesn't completely explain the physics, and is just a personal preference.

On a large tenor you can't have an in-tune low F and low C without significantly lipping in the low C down, or the low F up, as the slide isn't long enough. I keep my F-valve tuned so that C3 is right above Bb2 and the F2 is too sharp to use. This gives me the best chance to play a low C (even then it's a little sharp!) For my students that use F in V1 I have to continually remind them to play C3 a little further out on the slide to avoid it being sharp.

With a bass you always have the double valve option for low C, so losing it on the first valve isn't an issue anymore.

I don't know if this answers the OP question, but I hope it's not nothing either.

Hi William,

I hope all is well with you. I don't quite understand your explanation. Did you mean to say that you tune your F-valve so that your C3 is "in tune" (you said "right") and your F2 is TOO FLAT? You might have accidentally typed "too sharp" instead of "TOO FLAT." That would make more sense to me and it is a tuning that a few of my friends use. They like having easier access to C2 and always play their F2s in 6th position.

I like having access to F2 in trigger 1st position. When I was switching from being a high school student to college, I was frustrated with that F2 in trigger 1st. I had already started pulling my F-valve tubing to make C3 better in tune and only using 6th position for F2. My new teacher, Thomas Cramer, persuaded me to switch back and work hard at learning to play F2 in trigger 1st by lifting it and using very firm lip corners. He also had many exercises that drilled chord and technical patterns in the lower register, which frequently used the F2 in trigger 1st. Many of those exercises can be found in Andrew Glendening's book....The Art and Science of Trombone Teaching. Andrew was also in Cramer's studio when he was a peer of mine at Oberlin in the mid 1980s. Those exercises are absolutely wonderful. Buying the book just for those exercises is well worth the money.

https://www.grothmusic.com/p-64842-art- ... ching.aspx

Yep - meant too flat on the F2! Just mixed it up. Andrew's book is great also.

I think I do not see the problem the same.

I know I had troubles with the F being flat on V1 in the past, in my teens, but I haven't had that problem for years and since the horn haven't changed it must be I do things different now.

I do agree the F on V1 is different in charakter from the F on 6:th and I know I prefer the F on sixth for that reason, but here is what I do not understand. Since I do tune my F on V1 to be in tune when I tune my instrument it will still be in tune later on when I play music. Of course I can not follow if intonation raise and that may happen in some orchestras. I have no tolerance to follow a tuba that plays sharp or any other instrument that I'm bound to in a certain context if I'm on that F on V1.

You say you test this without shifting, without moving the jaw, and whith practically no changes. That would be very difficult to do for me. A minimum of movements, yes, but (for me) something needs to be done differently between any notes I play. A fith is a rather big leap so I need to change something between these notes. I'm convinced I do these things on any interval on the horn without thinking about it to get them smooth and to make them in tune and with the sound I want. If I focus on doing no changes I think I would have troubles in any register not just that fifth. I do these small but necessary changes all over the horn

I do recognize the problem, because I've had it but I have never thought of it as a problem with the design. It solved when I developed, and one step that made everything easier was to tune sharp and use long positions.

If someone really needs a higher F on V1 then it is possible go to a tech and ask him to shorten the tuningslide of the f-attachement. That should fix it, but I wouldn't recommend it because it could be hard to sell the horn later on.

/Tom

This is interesting. I don't have a bass trombone to test against my tenors, but I'll experiment with my different tenors later today.

I think some people may have missed the OP's point, that the V1 F is hard to center on tenor but not on bass, regardless of trigger tuning choices. I also notice doing slow glissandi from V6 low C to V1 F that this effect appears around V2. I always assumed it was just me and something I needed to work on; I didn't realize there may be an interaction with the horn.

Question: is the same true of pedal Bb, open horn? That it seems to center low on tenor but not on bass?

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 5:20 am You say you test this without shifting, without moving the jaw, and whith practically no changes. That would be very difficult to do for me. A minimum of movements, yes, but (for me) something needs to be done differently between any notes I play. A fith is a rather big leap so I need to change something between these notes. I'm convinced I do these things on any interval on the horn without thinking about it to get them smooth and to make them in tune and with the sound I want. If I focus on doing no changes I think I would have troubles in any register not just that fifth. I do these small but necessary changes all over the horn

I was going to write pretty much the same thing.

I must confess, I've never had the problem Crazy describes. Maybe it's because my first F-attachment trombones were a King Symphony dual bore and an Olds Ambassador A-20; both with very small bore attachment tubing. All I found was that F2 (below staff) was a tad flat if I matched F3's and C3 was in tune. If I tuned the attachment a tad sharp so F2 was in tune I had to play C3 a little flatter than 1st.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 7:40 am

imsevimse wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 5:20 am You say you test this without shifting, without moving the jaw, and whith practically no changes. That would be very difficult to do for me. A minimum of movements, yes, but (for me) something needs to be done differently between any notes I play. A fith is a rather big leap so I need to change something between these notes. I'm convinced I do these things on any interval on the horn without thinking about it to get them smooth and to make them in tune and with the sound I want. If I focus on doing no changes I think I would have troubles in any register not just that fifth. I do these small but necessary changes all over the horn

I was going to write pretty much the same thing.

I actually agree with both of you. I believe that I do change my jaw a little for a note such as low F in trigger 1st position while performing, especially on large bore tenor. However, I always try to practice things to go in a direction of "less is better." For low range, less jaw movement and less shifting is better.....sort of the Phil Teele approach. For upper register, trying to use less pressure and keeping my jaw, shoulders, etc....relaxed (less tension).

The origins of this inquiry are based on the fact that trigger low F on a bass trombone has always been so easy to produce with no adjustments while the same pitch on large bore tenor has been such a note of focus for me and my students. I have always been very cognizant that the low F could easily drop in pitch if I (or my students) don't actively do something about it. I am now thinking that a lot of players probably make jaw, air stream, embouchure engagement, etc.... adjustments on that pitch without realizing it. We are all very different in how we approach our instruments.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sat Dec 28, 2024 8:29 am I must confess, I've never had the problem Crazy describes. Maybe it's because my first F-attachment trombones were a King Symphony dual bore and an Olds Ambassador A-20; both with very small bore attachment tubing. All I found was that F2 (below staff) was a tad flat if I matched F3's and C3 was in tune. If I tuned the attachment a tad sharp so F2 was in tune I had to play C3 a little flatter than 1st.

Bruce,

My primary horn in high school and college was a King 4B (rotor was the same bore as the slide .547). I still had issues with that trigger low F on that instrument. Maybe it was just the player!

I tested a .500/.525 Yamaha, .525 King, and .547 Bach tonight. I don't have a bass.

They all exhibit the low center on V1, low F. I couldn't really tell which was better or worse, they all blurred after a while. Also I must have started unintentionally doing something to minimize it as they became all better.

Octave slurs with the trigger are interesting. For me the low center disappears around Eb.

One lesson I take is for me, don't tune the trigger to low F. A note that doesn't lock is not reliable for tuning. Tune to something that locks, like the C above it.

And then. This is really curious, not sure what to do with it. I play middle F, press trigger, note goes sharp to my ear, flat to my tuner. Huh?