TromboneChat

After playing for over 50 years, I've recently run into a problem with F4 in 1st position. It's always been in tune, but lately I have to pull the slide out a bit to stay in tune. Doesn't natter which horn or mouthpiece I use - It’s always sharp now in 1st position. Never had this issue until a week or two ago.

It's supposed to be sharp. Maybe your ears improved?

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 8:00 pm It's supposed to be sharp. Maybe your ears improved?

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.

officermayo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 9:29 pm

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 8:00 pm It's supposed to be sharp. Maybe your ears improved?

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.

Well, that F is in the same partial as the D you can play in 4th position. Where do you play that note, sharp 4th or flat 4th?

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 10:09 pm

officermayo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 9:29 pm

Quite the opposite, I'm afraid.

Well, that F is in the same partial as the D you can play in 4th position. Where do you play that note, sharp 4th or flat 4th?

Not to mention the E-flat and E in the same partial. They're all sharp.
Drives me crazy when I play next to trombonists who play their E-flat in "regular" 3rd position. They're always out of tune (sharp). We were all taught to play D in flat 4th; why did they never mention E-flat, E, and F?
We trombonists are lucky enough to have a slide that makes it easy to play these notes in tune. Why not use it?

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 12:34 am

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 10:09 pm

Well, that F is in the same partial as the D you can play in 4th position. Where do you play that note, sharp 4th or flat 4th?

Not to mention the E-flat and E in the same partial. They're all sharp.
Drives me crazy when I play next to trombonists who play their E-flat in "regular" 3rd position. They're always out of tune (sharp). We were all taught to play D in flat 4th; why did they never mention E-flat, E, and F?
We trombonists are lucky enough to have a slide that makes it easy to play these notes in tune. Why not use it?

Probably because tuning is relative and there are many instances where the 6th partial should be played harmonically to the fundamental. Like a 3/2 but in this case it's a 6/2, ie +2 cents sharp. Maybe with warmer temps arriving your space was simply warmer, and thus your horn was playing sharper with the same length of slide or tuning slide, just a thought.

Also - I think this adjustment is taught more for Eb in 3rd and D in 4th (6th partial) simply because this tuning issue is more pronounced (increasingly greater distances between positions) the further out the slide you go, requiring more adjustment as well.

There is no such thing as first position, OP. You're doing the right thing.

If you were playing in the key of Gb maj, you'd have to significantly raise that F natural as a melodic leading tone into the Gb. The tuning for every note "depends".

officermayo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 25, 2025 7:47 pm After playing for over 50 years, I've recently run into a problem with F4 in 1st position. It's always been in tune, but lately I have to pull the slide out a bit to stay in tune. Doesn't natter which horn or mouthpiece I use - It’s always sharp now in 1st position. Never had this issue until a week or two ago.

You changed ensembles?

In a community band scenario, it is not unusual to have a euphonium play that note at the same time. It's much more difficult for them to get that note in tune, apparently. I just leave that note out and let them play it.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 12:34 am We were all taught to play D in flat 4th; why did they never mention E-flat, E, and F?

Huh? I was taught about F, and had to extrapolate the others on my own.

Most band ensembles go “out of tune together” and one of the worst offenders is the concert F. When I taught high school, one of the drone pitches that I would keep ready was F. If my band was feeling a bit cocky, I would refer to the drone F on the old-fashioned strobe tuner (tuned equal temperament to A=442) after they played an F or B-flat chord. They were sharp at least 90 percent of the time and learned to be more careful over time.

Another pitch that horrible with bands is concert C. The B-flat trumpets (their D) was routinely flat, the flutes were usually sharp, the saxes (especially alto saxes in the upper octave) and clarinets were all over the map. I don’t want to even think about the horns and tubas!

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 12:02 pm Most band ensembles go “out of tune together” and one of the worst offenders is the concert F. When I taught high school, one of the drone pitches that I would keep ready was F.

Another pitch that horrible with bands is concert C. The B-flat trumpets (their D) was routinely flat, the flutes were usually sharp, the saxes (especially alto saxes in the upper octave) and clarinets were all over the map. I don’t want to even think about the horns and tubas!

"Japanese Middle School Wind Ensemble": *has entered the chat*

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:02 am If you were playing in the key of Gb maj, you'd have to significantly raise that F natural as a melodic leading tone into the Gb. The tuning for every note "depends".

Oh that's really contentious

.....must not derail thread.....must not derail thread.....

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 12:36 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:02 am If you were playing in the key of Gb maj, you'd have to significantly raise that F natural as a melodic leading tone into the Gb. The tuning for every note "depends".

Oh that's really contentious

.....must not derail thread.....must not derail thread.....

Nah see, I covered myself. It always "depends".

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 12:36 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 6:02 am If you were playing in the key of Gb maj, you'd have to significantly raise that F natural as a melodic leading tone into the Gb. The tuning for every note "depends".

Oh that's really contentious

.....must not derail thread.....must not derail thread.....

Oh, come on. You know you want to.

I’ll take it the other way. If that F is the third of a D-flat chord in the key of G-flat (V or V7 chord), it would need to be lower than equal temperament to be in tune.

Let’s just face it….if you listen to any high school band or average community group, that F will be sharp. Trombone players are not the only offenders. In some bands the trumpets are even more sharp. Throw in some horn players who refuse to put their hands far enough in the bell and they contribute to the mess.

In my early days of directing, the alto saxophones were the biggest problem on a concert F. I swear….Selmer made the Bundy II saxophone with the D tone hole at least 1/4 inch too far up on the body of the instrument. It forced me to teach an entire generation of saxophones to do a pronounced jaw drop every time they played that pitch. If left alone, those concert Fs would have consistently been 40 cents sharp.

Playing in tune requires three things to be in place: 1. An instrument that is designed and constructed favorably for the musician to play better in tune and allows the musician to move the pitches to their liking. 2. A person who willing to devote years to ear training and the art of adjusting their intonation. 3. Playing in an ensemble that is dedicated to listening and playing better in tune.

Crazy4Tbone86 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 26, 2025 12:02 pm Most band ensembles go “out of tune together” and one of the worst offenders is the concert F.

Recently in a community band rehearsal, the director had us play a Bb major scale for warmup. Then he or she (I'm being careful to remain anonymous, you'll see why) asked for an F major scale - curve ball.

Someone playing an Eb alto horn quickly asked, "what note is this on my horn?"