TromboneChat

Hello,

this might been asked several times, but I have a Conn 88HSCL I want to sell, but I don‘t know hoe old it is. The serial number is 192978. Who has an idea how old it is?

meine wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 4:49 am Hello,

this might been asked several times, but I have a Conn 88HSCL I want to sell, but I don‘t know hoe old it is. The serial number is 192978. Who has an idea how old it is?

I think that only God knows and, maybe, Conn-Selmer (if you are lucky enough to get response from them)...

Well, maybe I shouldn‘t wait for an answer of one of bothmaybe somebody else knows something

It's a CL which means early 2000s at the most. The age doesn't really matter.

I know, it‘s in very good shape. But just to know how old it is exactly would be nice

My 88HSCL is from 2000 or 2001. On the underside of the valve it says "Pat. Pending," which the later ones didn't have. I'm not sure which is the serial number, as there's one on the bell brace and one on the slide brace and neither are close to your number.

The one on the bell brace is 5 712448

The one on the slide brace is J 0489

Is there another number somewhere?

On the valve I have the patent with number and on the handslide is C 6908

Numbers on both handslide braces are for assembly purposes only.

meine wrote: ↑Sat Apr 05, 2025 10:23 am On the valve I have the patent with number and on the handslide is C 6908

What's the number on the bell brace? Is that the 192978 number?

It's weird because I can't see any correlation with mine, which is obviously earlier than yours, given that mine was patent pending and yours has the patent number.

Right, the longer nimber is on the bell brace, the shorter on the handslide brace. Makes no sense to me too…

If my memory serves, there was discussion on the old Trombone Forum where someone mentioned that prefix 5 means 2000 year.
And some time later, as I understand, Conn stopped using this prefix and leave only 6 digits.
BTW, I have 88HCL and will check it on Monday...

Shorter number on handslide is a production number to keep those two halves matched in the factory. Common on many makes/models.

I'm curious if this mystery was every solved. I also have a Conn 88HSCL with a 192xxx serial number, and have been curious about its age.

Serial number is on the bell crossbrace. "From 1987 to present, add 50 to the serial number prefix to calculate the year of manufacture." So, if first two numbers were 37, that means the year of manufacture is 1987. 50 means 2000, 60 means 2010, etc. They may just use "5" or "6" instead of "50" or "60."

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 7:48 pm Serial number is on the bell crossbrace. "From 1987 to present, add 50 to the serial number prefix to calculate the year of manufacture." So, if first two numbers were 37, that means the year of manufacture is 1987. 50 means 2000, 60 means 2010, etc. They may just use "5" or "6" instead of "50" or "60."

What does that mean for mine? The number on the bell brace is 5 712448.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 7:35 am

Blabberbucket wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 7:48 pm Serial number is on the bell crossbrace. "From 1987 to present, add 50 to the serial number prefix to calculate the year of manufacture." So, if first two numbers were 37, that means the year of manufacture is 1987. 50 means 2000, 60 means 2010, etc. They may just use "5" or "6" instead of "50" or "60."

What does that mean for mine? The number on the bell brace is 5 712448.

According to that utterly confusing way of calculating, maybe 2007?

Serial numbers, and how to produce them, very often give me the impression of snake oil for archivists.

im pretty sure that only extended through 1994 with the prefix of 44. and then ive heard that the prefix of 5 means either post 1995 or post 2000

I think the 5 prefix with a space could mean that it’s likely from between 1996 and 2000.

Maybe someone with access to an Allied catalogue can look at this?
http://forums.chisham.com/viewtopic.php ... e_vignette

I used to own an 88h which I know was from that period and it had the number “5 7757xx”. There is no way that horn could have been post-2000, I bought it as NOS from a music store in April 2000.

I think these 88HSCL horns first started being sold in 2000, while the valve patent was still pending.

NotSkilledHere wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 8:50 am im pretty sure that only extended through 1994 with the prefix of 44. and then ive heard that the prefix of 5 means either post 1995 or post 2000

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. The bit I quoted in my post was from Conn-Selmer's web page. Must be out of date

Digidog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 8:49 am Serial numbers, and how to produce them, very often give me the impression of snake oil for archivists.

Serial numbers can reveal a lot about production practices and production scheduling. That's true whether they are generated with a coding (the old Conn letter-and-numeric prefix code) or without a coding (Bach serial numbers, which were continuous for New York, Mt Vernon, and (I think) Elkhart for lines of trumpets and trombones). In fact, the Conn practice is even more revealing than Bach's.

Some manufacturers consider that sort of information a trade secret, and have taken to using an invertible coding function to generate "serial numbers". That way, the information embedded in the "serial number" can be recovered by those who have the inverse function, and it's hidden from everyone else.

In World War 2, the Wehrmacht introduced the Panther tank. The American and British intelligence services used serial numbers on captured and destroyed tanks to estimate Panther production leading up to D-Day. The statistical estimates were much closer to the actual production numbers than the estimates from other methods.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 5:02 pm I think these 88HSCL horns first started being sold in 2000, while the valve patent was still pending.

Year 2000 is looking like the best guess then, that seems to be the overlap between the last usage of the 5 prefix and introduction of the CL valve.

Would be more sure if someone with an Allied catalogue could fact check what I wrote about 2000 being the last year of the 5 prefix…

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 11:45 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 5:02 pm I think these 88HSCL horns first started being sold in 2000, while the valve patent was still pending.

Year 2000 is looking like the best guess then, that seems to be the overlap between the last usage of the 5 prefix and introduction of the CL valve.

Would be more sure if someone with an Allied catalogue could fact check what I wrote about 2000 being the last year of the 5 prefix…

I tried to attach a screenshot but I can't upload images right now for some reason.

Allied catalog says:
-From 1996 to 2000, the prefix "5" preceded the serial number.
-From 2001 the prefix was dropped entirely.

So, you'll have to contact Conn-Selmer if you are determined to find out date of manufacture.

Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 8:12 pm

Digidog wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 8:49 am Serial numbers, and how to produce them, very often give me the impression of snake oil for archivists.

Serial numbers can reveal a lot about production practices and production scheduling. That's true whether they are generated with a coding (the old Conn letter-and-numeric prefix code) or without a coding (Bach serial numbers, which were continuous for New York, Mt Vernon, and (I think) Elkhart for lines of trumpets and trombones). In fact, the Conn practice is even more revealing than Bach's.

Some manufacturers consider that sort of information a trade secret, and have taken to using an invertible coding function to generate "serial numbers". That way, the information embedded in the "serial number" can be recovered by those who have the inverse function, and it's hidden from everyone else.

In World War 2, the Wehrmacht introduced the Panther tank. The American and British intelligence services used serial numbers on captured and destroyed tanks to estimate Panther production leading up to D-Day. The statistical estimates were much closer to the actual production numbers than the estimates from other methods.

Well: I know why a manufacturer has a need for numbering parts, assemblies and final products, but when there in the end is no consistency - or documentation - for a customer to backtrack important information about their product, those numberings become more of mythological inscriptions, than useful information. Especially so when the manufacturer itself does not comply with either or both of their own numbering and production standards.

To me, it seems like many instrument manufacturers are not so serious about neither specification consistency, nor the documentation reliability for assuring proper maintenance, repair and change of parts for the customer. In the end making their stamped numbers more of a curiosity, on a product that the company seemingly wants customers to always buy new in its entirety, rather than supporting them in keeping and maintaining what they already bought.

I mean: what's the use of knowing - or in this case: guessing - when a horn was built, if you can't find any documentation of the production, the measurements and the use of materials for it, and still have to custom build any part that has to be repaired, replaced or modified?

The WWII tank example shows that the serial number as a code is only useful to decipher if it contains information that can be of use. As far as it seems with trombone serial numbers, there is not much more than maybe the year of production that can be distilled from a serial number, since most other information is either impossible to decipher, or the information the codes refer to is lost or never has been documented. A made up example: If all very desirable red brass 88H from 1965 are stamped with a "7" on the bell, that number is useless if we still don't know the proportions in the alloy, still have to measure each flare, metal thickness and seams individually, and still can't find a handslide with the same fitting taper, because the information is lost or never was properly documented.

So, today I've checked my 88HCL, serial is 1628XX without prefix and valve casing and cap both have patent #.

A member of this chat here contacted me yesterday. He work as the Eastlake factory and says my 88HSCL was made around 2007/8.

In my collection of assorted brass instrument catalogues, I have 3 Conn trombone leaflets which might shed some light on this discussion ( or make things even more murky)

Leaflet dated 1/99 (January 1999) It is introducing the new "Generation 2" 88H range with different bells,, slides and lead pipes. It also shows the CL2000 valve, but does not mention anything about the patent situation. The 8H and 89H convertible models are also shown.

Leaflet dated 5/99 (May 1999) This is an enlarged version of the above leaflet but now shows the CL2000 valve as "patent pending", and refers the reader to a separate brochure.

Leaflet dated 7/99 (July 1999) This is a specific CL2000 brochure and shows the CL2000 rotor as "patent pending".

So, it seems that the88HCL was available in 1999 and possibly as early as January of that year.

Cheers

Stewbones43

For what it's worth, my Conn 88HCL (rose brass bell) has a serial number 1358xx, and the valve and (2) valve caps are stamped/engraved "Patented 5,965,833." I have no idea when it was manufactured (early -mid 2000s?), and I don't really care, but this trombone plays wonderfully, and the short-throw, fast-acting valve works flawlessly (since I replaced the valve bumpers with a less elastic/bouncy rubber!).

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:06 pm For what it's worth, my Conn 88HCL (rose brass bell) has a serial number 1358xx, and the valve and (2) valve caps are stamped/engraved "Patented 5,965,833." I have no idea when it was manufactured (early -mid 2000s?), and I don't really care, but this trombone plays wonderfully, and the short-throw, fast-acting valve works flawlessly (since I replaced the valve bumpers with a less elastic/bouncy rubber!).

Yeah, I LOVE the CL2000 valve.

tbdana wrote: ↑Tue Apr 29, 2025 9:22 am Yeah, I LOVE the CL2000 valve.

Me too.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 11:06 pm the valve and (2) valve caps are stamped/engraved "Patented 5,965,833."

In case anyone is wondering, this patent was filed on September 21, 1998, and issued on October 12, 1999. But before that, a provisional patent application was submitted on October 15, 1997. Apparently, this allows Conn to use "Patent Pending".
So I guess there were no CL2000s made before 10/15/97, and they all said patent pending until at least 10/12/99.