TromboneChat

I find it incredibly annoying when I have to sit next to another musician who is pounding his/her foot on the floor on every beat. It's very distracting. Sometimes it shakes the whole riser. And it's not helping you at all. I observe no correlation whatsoever between having good time and tapping your foot. Oftentimes, the foot tappers have the worst time of all. It just isn't necessary. You can easily keep the beat in your brain, and if you have no innate sense of time, tapping your foot isn't going to fix that. So stop doing it. And if you are a teacher, stop teaching your students to do it.

This is timely because I am trying to retrain myself to have a good sense of internal time (with eighth notes). I was wondering if tapping my foot would help? I have been using a metronome but I find myself having trouble hearing it and falling back (onto old habits??!?) or tapping my heel to keep time. Trying to internalize good, consistent time without rushing to get through a challenging section. I have wondered in the past if the ground shaking could be bothering to others? Sounds like for some this could be the case. Thanks for sharing!

brassmedic wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 7:48 pm I find it incredibly annoying when I have to sit next to another musician who is pounding his/her foot on the floor on every beat. It's very distracting. Sometimes it shakes the whole riser. And it's not helping you at all. I observe no correlation whatsoever between having good time and tapping your foot. Oftentimes, the foot tappers have the worst time of all. It just isn't necessary. You can easily keep the beat in your brain, and if you have no innate sense of time, tapping your foot isn't going to fix that. So stop doing it. And if you are a teacher, stop teaching your students to do it.

Pounding is one thing, tapping is another. Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.

I have one on my Android phone that's called Pro Metronome. It's pretty loud if you turn up the phone's volume all the way. I like the idea of metronome practice over foot tapping because the metronome is objective. I feel that foot tapping doesn’t really teach you to internalize the beat; it's just a crutch that you're stuck with the rest of your life - and not even a very effective one.

In Jr. high we were told to just tap our toe inside our shoe.

However, I think foot-tapping or toe-tapping is a valid pedagogical tool. Rhythm in music originates with walking and dancing and marching. It's part of the concept, part of experiencing the beat in the most basic way and part of learning subdivision of the beat.

You want your students to "internalize the beat"? You won't know they have a beat if they are not doing some external physical motion. Foot tapping is sufficiently distant from the embouchure to not be a disruptive motion.

Kids who don't feel the beat are just playing one approximate note duration after another, probably what ever the kid next to them is playing. They can't play on their own.

When they get too old to still be foot tapping, you can teach them not to, just like you can teach teach them not to play every note at the same volume or not to articulate every note the same way.

Foot-tapping is baby steps, but baby steps is where you start.

I've seen too many players tap but still have bad time to think it helps anything.

I have bad time when I tap. I have bad time when I don't tap. I'm starting to think maybe my feet aren't the problem.

Im not an aggressive tapper, but I do that the mortifying habit of silently mouthing my measures of rest for all of the audience to see what must look like an attempt to put a hex on the conductor.

What is worse than someone stomping their foot while not in time?
Someone stomping their foot on the rhythm they are playing. And it's even worse when they are playing offbeats.

The Caruso method used foot tapping, but part of the Caruso training was learning to tap a steady beat.

I was taught not to tap, but to stay with the guy waving the stick. Sometimes he may want to change the tempo while you are busy marching to a different drummer.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 10:30 pm I've seen too many players tap but still have bad time to think it helps anything.

1

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 9:49 pm In Jr. high we were told to just tap our toe inside our shoe.

That's unfortunate. Stop teaching foot tapping. PLEASE.

However, I think foot-tapping or toe-tapping is a valid pedagogical tool. Rhythm in music originates with walking and dancing and marching. It's part of the concept, part of experiencing the beat in the most basic way and part of learning subdivision of the beat.

I disagree. Completely unnecessary. Your brain can keep time. Let's teach that instead of crude physical movements. If your brain can't keep time, I GUARANTEE your foot can't either.

Is anyone tapping their foot? No.

And if you play Mippy II, can you tap your foot then?

Good drummers seem to manage to do various things with their feet that are not necessarily on the beat, so there's that.

I think being able to subdivide in your mind helps with developing a steady sense of time, easier to lock in a steady stream of 8th or 16th notes in your head than quarter notes, say.

One of the breakthrough moments of my career was a lesson with Sam Burtis (RIP) about the Caruso method, in which he immediately diagnosed that my initial articulations were coming a tiny fraction of a beat behind my tapping foot. Adjusting the timing of my tongue motion over the next few weeks took my playing to another level and made it much more enjoyable.

Later on, while spending some time with Charlie Vernon, I noticed that he taps his foot while he's practicing almost all the time. And I realized that his method overall is much more about making sure whatever he is playing, in whatever register, is speaking EXACTLY when he wants it to than it is about playing everything 2 octaves up and 3 octaves down.

I maintain that foot tapping is an incredibly useful practice tool.

With that caveat, I'm totally on board with Brad. The ability to lead when it's time to lead and get out of the way when it's time to follow is essential to any professional musician. As a bass trombone player it's pretty rare that I'm the one leading, and I know I am much better at playing in coordination with a principal trombone or trumpet player when I'm not making any unnecessary motion.

You look around yourself today and are seeing the occasional adult who taps his foot too much.

You aren't seeing the would-have-been players who dropped out because they never got on the ladder of fundamentals like time and the beat.

I suspect most of the non-foot-tappers you see around you got started with foot-tapping, learned the lessons it embodied, then dropped it when it was no longer necessary.

The OP's situation, an adult who taps his foot too much, is more about the need to have cultivated a constructive relationship with your fellow players such that you can guide them out of this thing they don't need anymore, than it is about needing to ban this thing that was useful for everyone else.

I like to look around at all the foot tappers in an ensemble and observe how many different beats there are. I know one guy who taps aggressively, yet his foot timing has very little relationship to what he's playing. He plays in time, but taps out of time.

There are two times I'll tap my foot. First, when I'm trying like hell to keep the beat when cacophony is happening around me or when I'm concentrating to play a three against two or other odd beat. Second, when the groove is just so infectious that I have to make some movement. But the vast majority of the time I purposefully don't tap my foot. I think it looks horrendous from the audience, especially because of what I said in my very first sentence.

slidesix wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 8:50 pm This is timely because I am trying to retrain myself to have a good sense of internal time (with eighth notes). I was wondering if tapping my foot would help? I have been using a metronome but I find myself having trouble hearing it and falling back (onto old habits??!?) or tapping my heel to keep time. Trying to internalize good, consistent time without rushing to get through a challenging section.

Only consistent practice with an external, objective source of time can make your internal, subjective sense of time conform to reality.
IMO, most players (self included) don't practice with metronomes enough, and as a result don't realize when they are pulling/pushing time because, inside their heads, it seems spot-on. I had better time in the past when I did my entire warm-up and routine with a metronome every day. Several years of not being consistent about doing that has cost me, so I've gone back to it.

(shout out to the decades-old DB-66 Dr. Beat that was getting dusty on my shelf - downbeats that pierce my brain like an ice pick)

Until I saw your foot

I thought this music was in four,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it must be three,
Or maybe five, I can't quite see.
Or six? Or maybe not.

I thought this piece was rather slow,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it's double speed -
Sometimes it's very fast indeed.
And other times it's not.

I thought conductors gave the beat,
Until I saw your foot.
But now I think it rather neat,
To look at all the tapping feet,
And choose the speed that I prefer,
And play along with him - or her.
I find it helps a lot.

I thought my timing was all wrong,
Until I saw your foot.
Conductors beat both east and west,
But we don't play with all the rest:
We've found a tempo of our own,
And bar by bar, our love has grown.
O I was feeling so alone,
Until I saw your foot.

© Heather Wastie

I used to tap my foot. I thought I did so quietly. Many years ago, during a rehearsal break, I was quietly practicing a passage and keeping time with my foot. John Richards (RIP), former tubist with the Oregon Symphony, walked up to me and gently placed his foot on mine. He put his finger across his lips and said very quietly, “Sssh!” Then he pointed to his foot and said, “No one can hear your toe inside your shoe.”

I don’t always tap my toe, but when I do, it’s quietly.

Foot-tapping doesn't "keep" the beat, it's externalizing your personal subjective sense of time. It's clearer to do that by moving your instrument.

I'm reminded of two teachers I had in college as a music education major.

One, I'll call him Dr. C, insisted that one must never let beginners tap their foot. "Terrible habit! Utterly unnecessary!" The other, I'll call Mr. J, explained why it is useful for beginners to tap their foot and advocated for it.

Dr. C, our orchestra conductor, had a doctoral degree in conducting. Mr. J, our jazz band director, had a masters in instrumental pedagogy.

Dr. C had never had to conduct anything less able than a regional high school honors orchestra. Mr. J had a successful career of teaching public school band from beginner through high school prior to coming to our college.

Who do we suppose knew more of what he spoke?

Ted wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 5:45 am And if you play Mippy II, can you tap your foot then?

Yes, and you can snap your fingers if you're playing West Side Story or The Pink Panther.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 12:23 pm I'm reminded of two teachers I had in college as a music education major.

One, I'll call him Dr. C, insisted that one must never let beginners tap their foot. "Terrible habit! Utterly unnecessary!" The other, I'll call Mr. J, explained why it is useful for beginners to tap their foot and advocated for it.

Dr. C, our orchestra conductor, had a doctoral degree in conducting. Mr. J, our jazz band director, had a masters in instrumental pedagogy.

Dr. C had never had to conduct anything less able than a regional high school honors orchestra. Mr. J had a successful career of teaching public school band from beginner through high school prior to coming to our college.

Who do we suppose knew more of what he spoke?

Is this an appeal to authority?

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 9:01 pm Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.

No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:18 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 9:01 pm Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.

No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.

This just feels wildly subjective and it's a subject that's not cut and dry. There's plenty of folks working who have excellent rhythm who tap and plenty who don't. If you're relying on it, then yeah you probably have bad rhythm, but if, as someone else in the thread put it, it's simply and externalization of your internal beat, it can be very helpful. An example is a clarinetist we both work with. His rhythm is excellent and he pretty much always taps. But he does it very lightly in a way that doesn't affect and make anyone else feel the vibration. Sit next to him all the time in wildUp and you never feel it or get distracted by it, but can always rely on his rhythm to be perfect.

I feel like the actual issue is professionalism. Those folks that shake the whole platform on gigs need to get it together and stop making your job more difficult to do, which I feel like this is what this post is about. It's the same with folks who conduct during rests... there's nothing wrong with tapping if it's part of externalizing your rhythm or making sure your body is functioning in alignment...the real issue is unprofessional behavior that distracts from those around you.

mbarbier wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:50 pm

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:18 pm
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.

This just feels wildly subjective and it's a subject that's not cut and dry. There's plenty of folks working who have excellent rhythm who tap and plenty who don't. If you're relying on it, then yeah you probably have bad rhythm, but if, as someone else in the thread put it, it's simply and externalization of your internal beat, it can be very helpful. An example is a clarinetist we both work with. His rhythm is excellent and he pretty much always taps. But he does it very lightly in a way that doesn't affect and make anyone else feel the vibration. Sit next to him all the time in wildUp and you never feel it or get distracted by it, but can always rely on his rhythm to be perfect.

If I had said "There are no foot-tappers who have good rhythm", then I would agree that I'm being wildly subjective. But I didn't say that. And I would bet that your colleague would have excellent rhythm even if he didn't tap his foot. So I'll agree to disagree. I appreciate your alternate perspective. I only hope that the foot-tappers could tap just their toe inside the shoe so that they are not creating a distraction for their colleagues.

And I totally agree about the conducting thing.

Tapping or moving the foot is perfectly acceptable. Pounding the ground so that it makes a sound or shakes the riser you're on is unacceptable.

Black and white. No room for interpretation.

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 10:30 am Only consistent practice with an external, objective source of time can make your internal, subjective sense of time conform to reality.

robcat2075 wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 9:08 am You aren't seeing the would-have-been players who dropped out because they never got on the ladder of fundamentals like time and the beat.

TomInME wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 10:42 am Foot-tapping doesn't "keep" the beat, it's externalizing your personal subjective sense of time.

nateaff wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 11:24 pm I have bad time when I tap. I have bad time when I don't tap. I'm starting to think maybe my feet aren't the problem.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 10:30 pm I've seen too many players tap but still have bad time to think it helps anything.

Thanks to everyone that shared their experiences, knowledge, and logic around trying to learn to keep good time. I feel like I am going to come away a better player now.

After 3 months of practice, last week I realized my sense of 46 bpm and 90 bpm were both off and either was steady. So I introduced a metronome last week to my practices for the entire sessions. Glad to keep that is a good approach. I'll keep it up.

Plus tonight I am starting lessons up so I want to get off on the right foot (pun not intended!)

Brad, I hope you are able to spread the word more!

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:18 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Wed Apr 09, 2025 9:01 pm Nothing wrong with tapping other than you don't like it.

No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.

That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.

Foot tapping is like a lot of things, helpful when used for a specific purpose but not so good when used wrong or overdone.

In itself, it doesn't fix poor tempo. What it does is help students keep track of the beats (or subdivisions), particularly in rests and long notes. A large amount of my teaching these days is with elementary school students who are very prone to rush in general and often just blow right through longer notes or rests. Our percussion teacher often has the students make a motion outward and away from their instrument for rests to help them understand and keep track of a rest, for example. I also work quite a bit with adult students, including adult amateurs, and they very frequently have the same issue of short changing rests and long notes.

Another piece to the foot tapping puzzle is also how to feel the pulse/tap the foot. If the tempo is slow enough you really need to subdivide and maybe tap 8th notes in order to feel the pulse more effectively. When the tempo gets fast enough you need to switch from tapping quarter notes to half notes, etc.

Now if your foot tapping is loud and heavy, stop it. Of course you can tap more subtly so that no one will really notice unless you look really closely.

The OP used the term pounding. Pounding shouldn't happen-at all. If you're playing a loud club date gig pounding might not matter. Almost anywhere else no bueno.

I was in a big band rehearsal last night and found myself tapping while sight reading a fast, intricate chart. So of course I thought of this thread and the condemnation in it. So I stopped tapping.

I get to work with a variety of student ensembles quite as a guest or as a sub for a music teacher.

I encourage them all, no matter the musical genre, to get a 'kinesthetic response' happening to the music...feel it in their bodies... as they get set to play... when listening.

It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."

And we wonder why some kids get turned off of music or bands?

Like, somehow it's acceptable to dance and move when listening to music but not when creating it?

Yes...professionals learn when to tap the foot or when not to depending on the ensemble, the musical situation, etc. etc. (as has been discussed in the thread)

But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.

Case in point:

In an interview about 20 years ago, Quincy Jones was bemoaning the current state of affairs in music, and particularly in what was happening in hip hop, rap, and pop.

He said (I paraphrase): "The problem with todays so-called 'musicians' and 'producers' is that most of them have never played an instrument. They've never had to interact with other real humans beings in the creative process... they've never had the opportunity to build up a kinesthetic response to music or have never had to breathe in order to make a sound, or move their body to create music. Hell....they don't even dance! And they call themselves musicians? No wonder today's music is so lame."

Those are almost the exact words I heard on a radio interview. They've stayed with me as pretty relevant.

And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!

She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.

I don't find Dave Taylor's trombone playing distracting at all. His body movement is 'him'...it's him performing the music....it's why he's still going strong at age 81 and still at the top of his game. He's a breathing human being totally involved in the music. All the more power to him. Should be an inspiration to us all to stay 'human'.

So...a little foot tapping? Why not? If you know you have good time and you're performing in a situation that allows for it, I say go ahead by all means. Otherwise, the music might suffer.

Seemed in time to me

Cmillar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 11, 2025 11:06 am It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."

...
But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.
...
And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!

She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.

That's all great, but I don't think this is a one size fits all thing.

I'm one of those people who plays best by moving the least. Playing trombone, any movement can interfere with embouchure or slide movement (which I know might be different for different instruments). I do best when I devote 100% of my energy to the sound coming out of the bell, and avoid any movement that isn't necessary for that. I'm not a dancing player. But that may be simply because of the way I play and the type and difficulty of music that I play. I can't afford to move around.

Yet, sometimes (like last night) I still find myself unconsciously tapping my foot, which neither helps nor hurts my playing, it's just a (bad?) habit. And for the record, because foot tapping has been claimed to help with time, I have great time, and I still do it. I don't need to tap my foot. It just...happens. It's a mystery of the universe!

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Apr 11, 2025 11:48 am That's all great, but I don't think this is a one size fits all thing.

I'm one of those people who plays best by moving the least. Playing trombone, any movement can interfere with embouchure or slide movement (which I know might be different for different instruments). I do best when I devote 100% of my energy to the sound coming out of the bell, and avoid any movement that isn't necessary for that. I'm not a dancing player. But that may be simply because of the way I play and the type and difficulty of music that I play. I can't afford to move around.

Yet, sometimes (like last night) I still find myself unconsciously tapping my foot, which neither helps nor hurts my playing, it's just a (bad?) habit. And for the record, because foot tapping has been claimed to help with time, I have great time, and I still do it. I don't need to tap my foot. It just...happens. It's a mystery of the universe!

Right...Hah!...I'm sure that the marching band experience I had in high school was great for my 'music-in-time' training, but I sure can't march and play at the same time to save my life now. That's my idea of torture. I don't know how some of those amazing dancing college band kids do it!. Or those dancing Japanese marching bands. Crazy!

Here's a place where you can pound your foot on the floor.

Cmillar wrote: ↑Fri Apr 11, 2025 11:06 am I get to work with a variety of student ensembles quite as a guest or as a sub for a music teacher.

I encourage them all, no matter the musical genre, to get a 'kinesthetic response' happening to the music...feel it in their bodies... as they get set to play... when listening.

It kills me when some student says "Our teacher doesn't want us to move at all. We're supposed to sit absolutely still and only raise our instruments when told to do so."

And we wonder why some kids get turned off of music or bands?

Like, somehow it's acceptable to dance and move when listening to music but not when creating it?

Yes...professionals learn when to tap the foot or when not to depending on the ensemble, the musical situation, etc. etc. (as has been discussed in the thread)

But please let not stifle human instincts and kinesthetic reactions in people that are learning how to create and participate in music, no matter what their age is.

Not what I said at all. I said foot tapping as a method of keeping time doesn't work so it doesn't make sense to do it - as a method of keeping time.

You complain of teachers who tell kids they can't move. I complain of teachers who tell kids they MUST tap their foot in order to be able to play rhythmically.

Case in point:

In an interview about 20 years ago, Quincy Jones was bemoaning the current state of affairs in music, and particularly in what was happening in hip hop, rap, and pop.

He said (I paraphrase): "The problem with todays so-called 'musicians' and 'producers' is that most of them have never played an instrument. They've never had to interact with other real humans beings in the creative process... they've never had the opportunity to build up a kinesthetic response to music or have never had to breathe in order to make a sound, or move their body to create music. Hell....they don't even dance! And they call themselves musicians? No wonder today's music is so lame."

Those are almost the exact words I heard on a radio interview. They've stayed with me as pretty relevant.

And, have you ever watched Hilary Hahn perform? She's like a ballet dancer. Her large floor length dresses are probably designed to hide her leg movement so she doesn't detract from the music and have people think she's dancing instead of playing violin!

She's really involved with her whole body. Most great performers are in some way or another.

I don't find Dave Taylor's trombone playing distracting at all. His body movement is 'him'...it's him performing the music....it's why he's still going strong at age 81 and still at the top of his game. He's a breathing human being totally involved in the music. All the more power to him. Should be an inspiration to us all to stay 'human'.

So...a little foot tapping? Why not? If you know you have good time and you're performing in a situation that allows for it, I say go ahead by all means. Otherwise, the music might suffer.

But lots of great performers play very musically without dancing around. I don't think dancing around is necessary to make music.

I find I'll just sometimes move with the music, sometimes foot tapping, sometimes something else. Sometimes I see someone else tapping, and it's distracting because it's not on the beat. We took a class in music school called movement where we danced around to the prof playing the piano. I feel weird if I'm not moving somehow with the music.

Worse yet - I play with a college group sometimes as an adult mentor. So I have the bass drum right behind me about 1/4 beat behind. The euphonium player next to me anywhere from 1/2 beat to 3 beats behind, the horn player tapping his foot seemingly randomly, the snare drum 1/10th of a beat ahead and speeding up, and then the conductor. Is it training? Is it punishment? Is it a test?

One thing I learned, right or wrong, was that you never tap for classical music. But if you tap for other kinds of music, it's ok. Just don't distract anyone.

On a related topic, sometimes some "body english" can be useful in small ensembles where there is not a strong established pulse. For example, a tbone quartet that starts with a big whole note. Somebody has to establish the beat. Whether it's a slide motion, swaying your body or god forbid a toe tap.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 11, 2025 1:49 am

brassmedic wrote: ↑Thu Apr 10, 2025 1:18 pm
No, plenty wrong with it. It. Just. Doesn't. Work. If foot tapping were beneficial, then we should expect foot-tappers to have better rhythm than non foot-tappers. That is absolutely not the case.

That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.

It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea. You don't need to tap your foot to have good rhythm. Stop teaching kids that they must do it.

brassmedic wrote: ↑Fri Apr 11, 2025 6:06 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Fri Apr 11, 2025 1:49 am

That's. Your. Opinion. Not. Fact.

It's my observation. Do you really think foot-tappers have better rhythm than non foot-tappers? I already posted a video of musicians with excellent rhythm who don't tap their feet. I could post a hundred more, but I would think you would get the idea.

Dude that's essentially meaningless. There's countless scenarios where your observation is invalidated, but I have zero desire to go through all of them. Why can't it be left at for some people it's helpful and for others it isn't? Why does it need to be that it's meaningless period? All that matters is it helps them.

I think BrassMedic raises a good question. Whether foot tapping really helps people have better time sounds like something that is discernible. Clearly, if it does help, than those who foot tap should have discernibly better time, overall, than those who don't. Right? If it helps, we should see it.

I have no idea because I don't teach, and the foot tappers I play with are not particularly good with time. But if it's a real benefit -- if ANYTHING is a real benefit -- shouldn't it be qualitatively measurable, like any other binary thing?

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Apr 11, 2025 7:12 pm I think BrassMedic raises a good question. Whether foot tapping really helps people have better time sounds like something that is discernible. Clearly, if it does help, than those who foot tap should have discernibly better time, overall, than those who don't. Right? If it helps, we should see it.

I have no idea because I don't teach, and the foot tappers I play with are not particularly good with time. But if it's a real benefit -- if ANYTHING is a real benefit -- shouldn't it be qualitatively measurable, like any other binary thing?

Y’all aren’t going to like that it is likely a conditional probability or that there is some other statistical interaction that is likely at play. Sure, you can test it. You may even find out that the terrible rhythm folks are even worse without tapping… I’m happy to help with the statistical analysis and test setup, but I see it as not likely to be conclusive. Binary data is not so easy in the subjective areas. First step will be to define what constitutes a tap and then what percentage of different populations tap.

My thought on this entire thread; what we really don’t like is bad time/rhythm, not the tapping or lack thereof. I won’t name names, but there are a handful of players I am sure would generally be listed by the group here as top 10 or 20 players in the world that are habitual tappers. You can find videos. Only complaint they ever get on that is from us sound guys noting when we hear it on the recording. For posterity, you can hear one (and a breathing tic that drives me nuts) during the end credits of a major motion picture. Still can’t believe the engineer didn’t edit it out.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 7:52 am Y’all aren’t going to like that it is likely a conditional probability or that there is some other statistical interaction that is likely at play. Sure, you can test it. You may even find out that the terrible rhythm folks are even worse without tapping… I’m happy to help with the statistical analysis and test setup, but I see it as not likely to be conclusive. Binary data is not so easy in the subjective areas. First step will be to define what constitutes a tap and then what percentage of different populations tap.

Sounds like you're saying there's no clear evidence that it's helpful. I would also say there's no evidence that it's harmful, to ourselves.

But there is clear evidence that it's harmful to other people: nearby players, and everyone who shares a recording with us.

That's enough for me to completely avoid it.

This is up there with "touching the bell".

I totally agree that audible, palpable foot stomping is bad. But moving the foot in time is as harmful as is touching the bell. Something teachers latch onto as detrimental, but not actually related to poor playing on their students part. Just something they can blame and "fix". But they probably don't get any better because of this "fix". People who play with bad time have bad time. People who play out of tune have bad ears.

"Touching the bell" is a bad habit I learned when I was 8 years old, and sometimes I'll still find myself unconsciously doing it today.

My only real problems with foot tappers are:

1. In a symphony orchestra, from the audience's POV it's hella distracting and it looks unprofessional.

2. As a player, multiple people with slightly different foot taps all going on at once is crazy-making.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 10:49 am "Touching the bell" is a bad habit I learned when I was 8 years old, and sometimes I'll still find myself unconsciously doing it today.

That's what I'm saying. In your case (and many other great players' cases!) it is not a bad habit. It's unrelated to your ability to play well and in tune.

These things seem like huge no-no's but they're actually not really related to bad playing.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 10:49 am "Touching the bell" is a bad habit I learned when I was 8 years old, and sometimes I'll still find myself unconsciously doing it today.

My only real problems with foot tappers are:

1. In a symphony orchestra, from the audience's POV it's hella distracting and it looks unprofessional.

2. As a player, multiple people with slightly different foot taps all going on at once is crazy-making.

For case 1 above, I don’t think it is distracting. I’d argue that those bothered by it are more interested in being seen at a symphony concert than in seeing a live music performance.

I was taught that an orchestral trombonist should appear almost lifeless and bored…. I strongly disagree. I think if te music in enjoyable, that should be clear. If you don’t enjoy playing it, why should anybody enjoy listening? More connection between audience and performers is what makes live music worth it, IMHO.

As for 2. Absolutely. Again, what I hate there is the lack of alignment in the beat, that’s our root cause. Fix that and the annoyance of the motion goes away for me.

Cheers,
Andy

Jörgen van Rijen taps his foot. A lot. The whole foot, not just the toe.

I saw him do it tonight, from the fourth row.


So there!

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