TromboneChat

This is a peeve kind of like the foot-tapping one, but I'm not 100% sure I'm right about this.

In community orchestras I've played in, and in a couple professional ones too, some musicians do a thing that drives me nuts (though, really, nuts is a short walk for me). It's this, and I'll phrase it as a desperate plea:

When you're on stage warming up or otherwise in a place where the audience can hear you, for the love of God, do not practice licks, phrases, excerpts or any part of what you will be performing that night!

First, it just sounds terribly unprofessional. It also sounds like you suck. I mean, if moments before the performance you still have to practice your part, you clearly can't play it well enough and shouldn't be sitting in that chair. Practicing in front of the audience portions of what you'll be performing for them a few moments later is terribly bad form if for no other reason than you're pre-performing and taking a little of the magic away from the gig by virtue of the audience hearing it out of context before experiencing the piece.

I complained about it in a couple groups where I saw that happening and was greeted with disagreement ("Oh, it's fine. There's nothing wrong with it. We do that all the time.") or blank stares of incomprehension like...



I thought it was a well-known and universally accepted rule that it's very bad form and highly unprofessional to practice your part during warmups before a performance, when the audience can hear you.

Am I wrong?

I hear this happen before LA Phil concerts. They know what they're doing.

Yes

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:13 am I hear this happen before LA Phil concerts. They know what they're doing.

You've got to be kidding. Really? Wow. I would never expect that from anyone in that orchestra.

I mean, in L.A. you can get hung from the rafters just for warming up without a practice mute. But they're cool with this???

I mean, why do people need to do that?

Practice at home!

By the time you show up to the second rehearsal you should have your part down cold, or you shouldn't be in that orchestra. Why would you need to practice your part moments before performing it?

Like nails on a chalk board to me.

They're refreshing the muscle memory. I don't have a problem with it.

I went to a performance by our local symphony of a well known work last weekend. Young 1st trumpet player I haven't seen before starts playing a difficult lick slowly. He's on stage alone as the audience filters in.

During the performance he nailed it, but he was definitely "practicing", not warming up.

As an audience member, I didn't mind it. I knew what he was playing, and it seemed obvious that he hadn't done his homework. But I can see why other musicians on stage and especially the conductor would think its tres gauche.

I would say most orchestral players do this. When I did it, I was mostly practicing into the hall. Playing in my living room and in the concert hall were very different so I liked to get back that adjustment and make sure I was getting the notes to sound well in that space.

I didn’t worry about the audience for two reasons. One, what they heard me doing would be lost in the general tumult of the hall and out of context anyway so they probably wouldn’t recognize it. They wouldn’t hear it (unless they were one of my students focussed on me….). Two, I wasn’t ruining any surprises for anyone. They knew what the piece sounded like already.

To be clear, I wasn’t playing entire sections or full solos, just a bar or two or a hot lick form the show here or there just to keep my head in the game.

That happens in every major symphonic orchestra in Germany at every concert. And with every instrument.

I hate it. I don't want to hear your virtuoso solo or important part before you actually get to play it. Please let it be a pleasant surprise to the audience, when it's time comes. Warm yourself and your instrument up all you need to do to get it all sounding right. That's fine. But don't practice your part. It's very dull of musicians, IMO.

Personally, the first note I play is the first note of the song at practice. Practice is for what it says, plus it’s my warm-up between coffees.

Pro trumpet player joins us occasionally. He warms up a couple of minutes in the back room where I keep my instruments. No issues there.

Former guitar player. Cranking out annoyingly before practice started. Plugged into the sound system. Leader would start talking, didn’t matter to the guitar player. When did he tune? During announcements, or other in opportune times. See first word of this paragraph.

Drummers: Main practices at home. Backup comes early and bangs away before anybody else arrives. No issues there.

As for me, going crazy isn’t a drive…it’s a short putt.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:13 am I hear this happen before LA Phil concerts. They know what they're doing.

Same with the Pittsburgh Symphony, and from memory, lots of well-known orchestras, since I'm always keen on hearing what the brass chooses to warm up to. Never for too long, though.

I find it irritating to sit in the audience and have to listen to the cacophony made by a whole orchestra of musicians playing their own versions of warm-ups (noise). I like the approach of a local conductor who minimizes that. All the musicians are seated at the same time, and are allowed about two minutes to "wake up" their instruments.
Then the orchestra plays its theme song to fully wake up the embouchures; at the finish, the oboe sounds the tuning note; all the musicians fine tune their instruments, and the performance begins.

I agree.

It sounds like middle school to me. That was frowned on when I was young.

Now it's pretty commonplace, and maybe the acceptability has changed.

My thoughts: Warmup backstage. Play a couple notes or phrases in the hall to remind yourself of the acoustics. Then sit quietly and get your mind in the right place.

I usually warmup at home prior, then toot a few notes at the venue. If not, I use practice mutes. I try not to annoy others.

Admin: Is there a way, like in facebook to attach an emoji to a specific comment here? Not to an additional comment or copy/quote of the original comment, but rather to the original comment itself? Would save a lot of time and energy.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:18 am I mean, why do people need to do that?

Practice at home!

Nobody's home sounds or responds like an orchestra hall. I'm kind of with you, that it's lame to blast your Blowero solo right before the piece starts on a concert, but I can also see the need to make sure you've got your response down for the hall.

You can treat your home to respond like a recording studio, and show up to your LA Studio gig ready to go. You can't treat your home to respond like the Disney Symphony Hall.

musicofnote wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 7:36 am Admin: Is there a way, like in facebook to attach an emoji to a specific comment here? Not to an additional comment or copy/quote of the original comment, but rather to the original comment itself? Would save a lot of time and energy.

I responded to this comment in another thread. Short answer: No.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 7:43 am You can treat your home to respond like a recording studio, and show up to your LA Studio gig ready to go. You can't treat your home to respond like the Disney Symphony Hall.

If you ever sat in the dead spot where the trombones sit, you'd prefer the sound at home.

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 8:39 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 7:43 am You can treat your home to respond like a recording studio, and show up to your LA Studio gig ready to go. You can't treat your home to respond like the Disney Symphony Hall.

If you ever sat in the dead spot where the trombones sit, you'd prefer the sound at home.

First off, I know you know that still is along the lines of what I'm saying. Home ≠ Concert hall, for better or worse.

Second off, I don't know, maybe you've played specifically in the Disney Hall and know, but I certainly haven't. Maybe it's completely dead. That said, the symphonies I have subbed with in even mediocre halls have been in success that sounded significantly more reverberant and responsive than my house. You also appear to live in a mansion soo....

The Japanese concert halls blow my house away.

Maybe we're both right!

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 8:43 am

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 8:39 am

If you ever sat in the dead spot where the trombones sit, you'd prefer the sound at home.

First off, I know you know that still is along the lines of what I'm saying. Home ≠ Concert hall, for better or worse.

Second off, I don't know, maybe you've played specifically in the Disney Hall and know, but I certainly haven't. Maybe it's completely dead. That said, the symphonies I have subbed with in even mediocre halls have been in success that sounded significantly more reverberant and responsive than my house. You also appear to live in a mansion soo....

The Japanese concert halls blow my house away.

Maybe we're both right!

I honestly don't know why people need to practice their parts to get a feel for the hall. Seems like any old warmup licks will get you that. If that. Frankly, I have never in my life felt the need to play (especially play my performance part) to get used to the hall. I can hear the hall without playing. And I can play in any hall, as any musician who has toured can. I'm not sure that having to practice your part to get used to the hall is a real thing.

In fact, this is the first I've ever heard of it.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 12, 2025 11:56 am They're refreshing the muscle memory. I don't have a problem with it.

This!

tbdana wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 9:05 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 8:43 am

First off, I know you know that still is along the lines of what I'm saying. Home ≠ Concert hall, for better or worse.

Second off, I don't know, maybe you've played specifically in the Disney Hall and know, but I certainly haven't. Maybe it's completely dead. That said, the symphonies I have subbed with in even mediocre halls have been in success that sounded significantly more reverberant and responsive than my house. You also appear to live in a mansion soo....

The Japanese concert halls blow my house away.

Maybe we're both right!

I honestly don't know why people need to practice their parts to get a feel for the hall. Seems like any old warmup licks will get you that. If that. Frankly, I have never in my life felt the need to play (especially play my performance part) to get used to the hall. I can hear the hall without playing. And I can play in any hall, as any musician who has toured can. I'm not sure that having to practice your part to get used to the hall is a real thing.

In fact, this is the first I've ever heard of it.

I do agree. Playing your big solo or excerpt on the stage in front of the audience, before you play it in performance, is pretty lame.

G Keillor:

And this concept of professional(alism), prizes ensemble playing, and precision, and a sort of selflessness and this concept of professionalism can be expressed in certain principles. You wont find this list posted backstage, but, my wife tells me, thats because everybody knows this stuff right out of music school.
…
2. Don't show off warming up backstage. Don't do the Brahms Concerto. Don't whip through the Paganini you did for your last audition. Warm up and be cool about it.

There's one for the foot tapping thread in there too, a $10 fine.

Where do I send the cheque?

There seems to be a difference of culture on this. Symphony (and similar) concerts: warm-up on stage is acceptable and in some sense is encouraged, because you're giving the audience "sneak peeks" at what they could expect.

If I'm playing a wedding gig, the audience can't hear a peep before we start. It's not just etiquette, but practical: typically, the wedding party (audience) is engaged doing other things up to the second the band starts, and I don't want to interrupt. That means: whatever warmup I want to do beforehand is allowable, as much as I want; as long as the audience doesn't hear; and if there is no place to warm up/practice, that means that the first tune is played cold and I have to suck it up.

My at-the-gig warm-up protocal usually has more to do with the other players than the audience. Many of the audiences around me go to the concerts for a fun night out and could not care less about what constitutes a fo paux to professional musicians.

I use a practice mute if I am warming up on stage or around people in the back. Especially with a lot of regional orchestras I play in the set up is: you are either onstage or backstage,and neither one is normally a place where my peers want to hear my routine.
That being said, if excellent practice mutes like the Rejano or Shh didn't exist I would probably just play on the stage as normal.

However, it doesn't bother me if people play on stage, as long as they are being respectful volume and material-wise. Basics like: don't play excerpts, don't play someone else's part, don't play so loudly that others are affected, and don't be OBVIOUSLY learning your parts on stage. lol.

Sometimes I like to play a little on stage to hear the resonance and get a feel for a new hall... but I do it before the audience comes in.
Of course it changes with the audience in place, but that's for the gig to determine.
What bothers me even more is players who stay on stage and continue playing AFTER the concert is over.

After the concert????

I'm usually packed up and halfway to my car before the reverb on the last note dies.

Since 1994, the first time I played a professional gig on trombone, I have NEVER played with other trombone players who didn't, either backstage or on stage as the other musicians entered, play the opening phrase of the David. Not once. Ever. Someone in the section will play it. I have never found the need to. I just do my warm-up routine and touch any tricking passages, either back-stage or on stage. Always tapping my feet every 3rd measure, with 2 measures without tapping. And alternating feet.

Before 1989, when I was a trumpet player, I ALWAYS played the intro to Mahler's 5th and if it was a gig was on piccolo, the opening of the 3rd movement of the 2nd Brandenburg. Of course all the other trumpet players did the same. One colleague always had a glass of water and practiced any passage with running syncopations, which he kept track of with his glottis. Sometimes using this system to firm the agogics of staccatissimo eighth note/eighth rest passages, like the famous solo in the Messiah. Used to drive us crazy, but he was usually the guy who organised the trumpet section, got us the gig and paid us, so discretion being the better part of valor, we said nothing. And I learned to tap my foot as he did, because again, he was paying at the end of the gig and he wanted it.

I guess it ultimately comes down to reading the room if you don’t want to be the offensive one. But on the other hand it’s so easy to offend someone any place any time that it’s not possible to prevent it all the time.

I stopped thinking about what others might feel about what I do on stage a long time ago. As long as I’m in line with the explicit rules of the situation, I’ll do what’s necessary for me to be ready. If I have a good reason for what I’m doing and it isn’t obviously different from what is happening around me I’ll do it.

I turn it around and really don’t even hear what others are doing. That’s their business.

Except for that guy running a jazz riff inside and outside of an imaginary key before a symphony concert… now that’s annoying.

I remember being hired to play Nutcracker. I'd get on stage (in the pit) about 1/2 hour before curtain with my bass trombone and tuba (I had a doubling part) and the harp would be tuning up. She demanded silence from all of us in the pit while she tuned. She took all the time almost to the downbeat for the performance. What a frustration. Never had a chance to test the hall, and everything was cold when we started

I've heard this sentiment before, but why so judgmental? As long as they're not blasting away in a distracting manner, why can't everyone just accept what their colleagues feel they need to do to be as well-prepared for the performance as possible?

As to 1st trumpet playing a difficult lick slowly, I completely disagree that it's an indication they "didn't do their homework." I think that's incredibly smart. There are many difficult licks I'm never finished practicing in my entire life, and as I tell my students, it's never a waste of time to practice slowly and mindfully.

A friend who used to work as an usher at Orchestra Hall in Chicago told me that Bud Herseth was always one of the first on stage before every concert, playing simple etudes from Arban's.

Wow, first world problems

Yikes! If not having a part cold at the second rehearsal is reason to resign, almost every community orchestra would dissolve tomorrow. Community orchestra is about a lot more than that ... community isn't just a word to describe us as volunteers. I just started checking in on this forum after a long break and am headed again for the exit. It's a shame the mods have surrendered to a band dyspeptic bullies

sterb225 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 14, 2025 5:23 am Yikes! If not having a part cold at the second rehearsal is reason to resign, almost every community orchestra would dissolve tomorrow. Community orchestra is about a lot more than that ... community isn't just a word to describe us as volunteers. I just started checking in on this forum after a long break and am headed again for the exit. It's a shame the mods have surrendered to a band dyspeptic bullies

Think you are reading way more into this than was written.

That said, I prefer clearing the stage as the audience enters and having the group come on stage. But I get that is not terribly practical for many, heck even most groups. Have a group sound check before the audience is in to get the feel of the hall. But yeah, that costs money.

Cheers,
Andy

"Sound check" doesn't usually apply to an orchestra.
But yeah, for any gig with a sound system it should all be done before the audience comes in, if practical.
Nobody really wants to hear the mic checks on a drum kit...

I consider it amateurish. I was hanging out at a Sinatra concert once with Paul Faulise. Just off stage to his left. He literally didn’t play but one note. Urbie played a few Bb’s in different octaves, then put his horn on a stand. They sounded like a million bucks. For symphony players, I make the assumption that you’ve practiced enough to know where the notes are……..

Fridge

I think there are unwritten rules for different kinds of groups and performances.

• A Sinatra concert (presumably a paid union gig): Don’t play anything until the call to go on stage. That’s how Frank wanted it.

• A high school orchestra concert under Smith: everyone enters and exits according to plan, and no one plays a note until tuning.

• A high school band concert under Jones: people enter the stage when they want, warm-up loudly until tuning.

• Chamber orchestras: everyone enters at the same time, and tune together.

• Small combo: people wander on stage when it’s time, play a few quiet notes, then start.

People tend to get hung up on stuff that doesn’t matter. If you’re in the group, ask what the rules are. If you’re not in the group, then just enjoy the show.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sun Apr 13, 2025 3:40 pm As to 1st trumpet playing a difficult lick slowly, I completely disagree that it's an indication they "didn't do their homework." I think that's incredibly smart. There are many difficult licks I'm never finished practicing in my entire life, and as I tell my students, it's never a waste of time to practice slowly and mindfully.

Exactly the thought I had when browsing this thread. The idea that if you "did your homework" and "learned" the passage, you would never need to practice it again, seems hopelessly naive. To me it would be like going to the Olympics and seeing runners warming up and saying, "Why are they practicing running? Didn't they already learn how to run at home?"

All of the better groups that I perform with warm up on stage (and often play through sections of the music we will be performing). It's even stipulated in many CBAs. Never heard a complaint from an audience member.

Wow, I'm sorry but I think that's a pretty poor analogy. I'm sure it's just what came to mind in the moment, but I think you missed the boat on this one. "Why are they practicing running" at an athletic event vs "Why is he playing that Bolero solo over and over in front of the audience minutes before the concert?" are two wildly different things, rendering the analogy meaningless to my mind. Perhaps you could explain it and I'd understand, but now... And I am frequently guilty of choosing the absolute worst analogy, so understand there's no judgment here.

Also, no one ever said warming up on stage was a problem. It's not! The problem is when you're not warming up and instead are practicing your part that you're just about to perform. For the reasons stated in this thread, I believe it's inappropriate and amateurish. And I'm not a rule Nazi when it comes to music, so I've thought a lot about this.

Do I care if middle school band members practice their parts during the warmup on stage? Not really, except that it's a bad habit that gets ingrained and happens later on in life when it is inappropriate.

When you're an adult, you shouldn't be practicing your part in front of the audience, IMHO. At best it's gauche. And if you're practicing it on stage and making mistakes, yikes!!!

This rarely happens in jazz groups like big bands. It seems to happen most in orchestras and concert bands.

Speaking of concert bands, for a time I played in a very good community band that did something I found pretty cringeworthy. The lights would go down, the conductor would come out to applause, and the band would begin every concert by playing scale exercises in front of the audience. They'd do it to begin each concert, and again after intermission at each concert. These are adults in an award-winning community symphonic wind ensemble. There's an audience there to hear a concert! You shouldn't be practicing scales together during the concert! Do you all agree that that's inappropriate? In any case, I put practicing your part in front of the audience in the same category as these organized scale exercises. IMHO neither should be done.

Practice at home.

I, and the entire section of pros, practiced bits of the concert on stage before we started last night. I didn't even think about it until I saw this thread again.

How are doing sprints minutes before the sprinting competition, and playing through a passage of a piece minutes before you perform it, two "wildly" different things? The fact that you are so bothered by it says more about you than it says about those musicians, I think. As already mentioned, the top musicians in the world in major symphony orchestras do it, so by definition, you cannot call it "amateurish".

brassmedic wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 3:26 pm How are doing sprints minutes before the sprinting competition, and playing through a passage of a piece minutes before you perform it, two "wildly" different things?

One is a performance, the other is an athletic competition. One is collective, the other is individual. And the wind sprints are just warmup. You never see them running their event before the event. And it's not like they have anything other than "left, right, left, right" to warm up with, whereas we can warm up with our regular warmup and not with the performance piece we're about to do.

The fact that you are so bothered by it says more about you than it says about those musicians, I think. As already mentioned, the top musicians in the world in major symphony orchestras do it, so by definition, you cannot call it "amateurish".

That very well may be. It definitely says something about me. And I don't see why top musicians in the world have to practice their part in front of the audience. I think they're just accustomed to things I feel are poor form.

My big thing is showing up ready to go. It's a hill I'll die on. And yeah, that says something about me.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 3:17 pm I, and the entire section of pros, practiced bits of the concert on stage before we started last night. I didn't even think about it until I saw this thread again.

I guess you didn't hear me booing from the back of the house?

If you suggested that basketball players shouldn't practice free throws on the court before a game because "they should have done that in practice" and it "spoils it for the audience" I think you'd be laughed out of the arena. Just sayin'...

I'll offer a different perspective.

One of my very favorite sequences of sounds in the world is the sound of an orchestra onstage before and then at the beginning of a concert. I love the transition from complete disorganization (every individual playing their own thing with no coordination to anyone else) to loose organization (tuning) to the total organization of the music they play together.

For me, that's a kind of magic I don't get anywhere else.

To be fair, practicing free throws is more like doing arpeggios’s. Practicing the play you’re going to run in a few minutes is more like practicing your part just before the show starts.

Obviously, all these analogies are strained.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:45 pm One of my very favorite sequences of sounds in the world is the sound of an orchestra onstage before and then at the beginning of a concert. I love the transition from complete disorganization (every individual playing their own thing with no coordination to anyone else) to loose organization (tuning) to the total organization of the music they play together.

For me, that's a kind of magic I don't get anywhere else.

Well, there’s something we can agree on! That is one of the most magical things in the world, and it just takes you away as it progresses to the beginning of the concert. Yeah, baby!

tbdana wrote: ↑Sat Apr 19, 2025 4:15 pm My big thing is showing up ready to go. It's a hill I'll die on. And yeah, that says something about me.

You're making some big assumptions:
1. People do this because they're not ready. (Plenty of fully-ready people do this.)
2. People who do this are "practicing" the lick to get better. (More likely, part of their professionalism is to make sure everything is working, maybe they're using the lick to check their slide or chops.)
3. Hearing the licks out of context ruins the audience experience. (None of these licks sound better out of context.)