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Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 9:05 am
by JTeagarden
Straight Bach 36 arrived, serial number 8810, plays fantastically!
What your your thoughts on the wisdom and utility of adding a modern rotary valve (likely Instrument innovations) to the horn?
Crapshoot, or savvy mod?
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 11:09 am
by hornbuilder
Depends on who does the work.
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 11:43 am
by elmsandr
Making it modular, not terrible, but could mess with the straight horn. I would not cut the straight neckpipe to put a valve on it.
For reference, I have made my MtV 42 modular and that has improved the utility of that horn. Started to make the NY34 modular with it, but that will take a little more work and has just never been a priority. But the neckpipe of that horn is now removable and I haven’t had any ill effects with that horn.
Cheers,
Andy
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 11:59 am
by JTeagarden
Was tending towards John Sandhagen...
I think I'd want to make it modular, does that take some of the variability out of how the straight horn will play post modification?
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 6:20 am
by elmsandr
I don’t know it if takes variability out… but for me it making it as minimally invasive as possible to the current horn (assuming you like things about it as is). Also, done well, can be easier to put it back if something is screwed up. Note that for MOST Bach applications, the large bell flange position is different for straight and valves horns. I don’t like to move that flange. (Hence my 34 and 42 don’t currently play together and interchangeable right now). Were I in your shoes, decide what you want to do there first then decide what, if anything you want it to be modular with. For example, it could be set to work with artisan parts. Different flange position and reversed tuning slide… bigger tear up, but may be more flexible later.
Cheers,
Andy
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:51 am
by CalgaryTbone
I'll try this again - my post yesterday got lost in space.
A friend in school picked up a fantastic Conn 8H that I fell in love with when I tried it - I told him to let me know if it was ever for sale. Some years later after I had moved here to Calgary, we somehow connected when he decided to move on to a different instrument. In the meantime, he had Chuck McAlexander (Brasslab) cut the braces and create an open wrap valve section. The straight horn has all of the qualities that I admired from all of those years ago. The valve side plays well too, but is a bit heavier and sounds more tight with slightly less width to the sound. Not bad, but just a bit different.
I don't think you'll feel a lot of difference on the straight horn if you cut the braces as long as the tech you use is good. The valve will definitely make a change that is noticeable, but not necessarily bad. I would not just add a valve to the existing tubing - you may regret that.
Jim Scott
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 11:14 am
by hyperbolica
I'd just buy another horn with a valve. It will cost less and you'll know what you're getting.
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 2:52 pm
by UATrombone
Or, even lesser cost, find just bell section with valve.
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 4:57 pm
by elmsandr
CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:51 am
I'll try this again - my post yesterday got lost in space.
A friend in school picked up a fantastic Conn 8H that I fell in love with when I tried it - I told him to let me know if it was ever for sale. Some years later after I had moved here to Calgary, we somehow connected when he decided to move on to a different instrument. In the meantime, he had Chuck McAlexander (Brasslab) cut the braces and create an open wrap valve section. The straight horn has all of the qualities that I admired from all of those years ago. The valve side plays well too, but is a bit heavier and sounds more tight with slightly less width to the sound. Not bad, but just a bit different.
I don't think you'll feel a lot of difference on the straight horn if you cut the braces as long as the tech you use is good. The valve will definitely make a change that is noticeable, but not necessarily bad. I would not just add a valve to the existing tubing - you may regret that.
Jim Scott
YUP.
I love having a valve that I can take with that 42. Nearly doubles the amount of times that it can leave the house. Really wish I could get there with the 34, but that horn gets the vast majority of my paid gigs already.
For me: priority #1 don’t screw up the straight horn. #2 get something that you can use in a few more situations. As noted, that may just be picking up a 36B that is cheap enough… but I like using the same bits to do different things. Also, I’m a much better engineer than trombonist, so I like stuff to play together.
Cheers,
Andy
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:34 am
by CalgaryTbone
As far as the flange position, many of the detachable valve setups that I've played have a brace with some kind of angle or curve to allow the flange to stay in the same place, and the place where the brace attaches on the slide receiver side to stay the same. Requires some custom work, but worth it in my opinion. Shires just uses a small piece that looks a bit like an Edwards Bullet Brace (not detachable though). It might take some ingenuity to create room for your thumb and the valve lever all with a comfortable hand position, but I bet someone has created that before.
Jim Scott
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:11 am
by pmeiden
CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:34 am
As far as the flange position, many of the detachable valve setups that I've played have a brace with some kind of angle or curve to allow the flange to stay in the same place, and the place where the brace attaches on the slide receiver side to stay the same. Requires some custom work, but worth it in my opinion. Shires just uses a small piece that looks a bit like an Edwards Bullet Brace (not detachable though). It might take some ingenuity to create room for your thumb and the valve lever all with a comfortable hand position, but I bet someone has created that before.
Jim Scott
If I’m understanding Jim’s description, this is similar to what Chuck McAlexander did when he put an OE Thayer valve on a straight Yamaha 681G I had many bought many years ago (IIRC he ‘signed’ and dated it Feb 1994). At any rate, he didn't move any of the bell flanges, so with the original neck pipe, the horn is the original straight configuration. The bell brace on the valve section attaches to the original bell flanges and the brace by the slide receiver has an S curve to accommodate the clearance needed for the valve lever and be comfortable to hold. Works and looks nice.
EDIT: Found a photo:
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 8:57 am
by CalgaryTbone
pmeiden wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 6:11 am
CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:34 am
As far as the flange position, many of the detachable valve setups that I've played have a brace with some kind of angle or curve to allow the flange to stay in the same place, and the place where the brace attaches on the slide receiver side to stay the same. Requires some custom work, but worth it in my opinion. Shires just uses a small piece that looks a bit like an Edwards Bullet Brace (not detachable though). It might take some ingenuity to create room for your thumb and the valve lever all with a comfortable hand position, but I bet someone has created that before.
Jim Scott
If I’m understanding Jim’s description, this is similar to what Chuck McAlexander did when he put an OE Thayer valve on a straight Yamaha 681G I had many bought many years ago (IIRC he ‘signed’ and dated it Feb 1994). At any rate, he didn't move any of the bell flanges, so with the original neck pipe, the horn is the original straight configuration. The bell brace on the valve section attaches to the original bell flanges and the brace by the slide receiver has an S curve to accommodate the clearance needed for the valve lever and be comfortable to hold. Works and looks nice.
EDIT: Found a photo:
Exactly! I've seen lots of horns with a brace like that - a colleague had an 88H that Ron Partch built a sort of "Z" shaped brace for the straight section, keeping the flange in the same place. A good tech will be able to come up with something.
JS
Re: Adding a Valve to an early Elkhart straight Bach 36
Posted: Wed Apr 30, 2025 7:20 am
by JTeagarden
Thinking to leave the straight 36 "as is," and add a modern rotary valve to Bach Corporation 42B, leaving my "mixed" Bach family as:
MV 16
Early Corp straight 36
Late 70s Corp 42 w/ modern rotary valve
Mid 70s 50 with modern rotary valves
I can play every seat in a big band!