Thoughts on the Bach 16 (not 16M)

[dukesboneman]

I`m curious , does anyone out there play or has played a Bach 16?
What did you like? dislike?
thanks

[tbdana]

I've played one. Nice horn. Has that instantly recognizable great Bach sound. I'm just not a big fan of the dual bore or the heavier slide. Not sure if you can get a nickel slide on the 16, but that would make it more attractive to me.

[LetItSlide]

At Hickey's, they don't show a 0.495/0.509 dual bore nickel slide for the 16, just a standard slide with brass outer tubes.

You can order a .500 bore 12 LT (nickel) slide and/or a .509 bore LT slide (intended for the LT16M).

The folks at Hickey's would be able to find out, or they already know, if a lightweight 0.495/0.509 slide can be obtained.

[dukesboneman]

tbdana,
I have a 1965 Bach 12 that came with the standard weight slide. Hated it.
I had the over sleeves taken off. Very light and fast now.
letitslide - I already have 2 Bach 12"s which are .500. I`m interested in the dual bore
The .509 bores just don`t do it for me

[RJMason]

I used to own an LT16G. It was indeed a dual bore nickel slide, corp. loved that horn but couldn’t get used to the blow. Also didn’t project as well as I needed. Ended up with a Bach 8 lightweight yellow slide (no oversleeves) and a yellow 12 bell. That did the trick for me.

[dukesboneman]

RJMason - I have the opposite. An 8G Bell and a 12 slide with the oversleeves taken off and a Nickel crook

[RJMason]

I’d like to spend more time on a standard weight small bore slide and see how it works out. I’ve been digging the inertia I get on a 6H slide. All the ones I tried from Bach sounded glorious in the practice room and got lost in the sauce on a loud live gig. My 8/12 is a different beast though. Don’t really want to roll the dice and push my luck on finding another Bach which checks my boxes. Maybe one day!

[EriKon]

I've tested two Bach 16s quite recently. I liked both of them and actually considered to get myself a Bach 16 as a back-up small bore. I want to sell most of my current small bore stable and just stay with my Williams and a Bach 16 as a back up.

One horn was a Mount Vernon Bach 16. The bell was great, super resonant, but the slide felt off. Also wasn't in the best condition but it wasn't just that. It felt a little stuffy with that slide.

The other one was a 90s horn and I really love everything about this instrument. Easy response and that full Bach magic sound. When I tried it, everyone in the room was turning around and made big eyes because it sounded that good. Can definitely see myself buying this one.

[RJMason]

Yeah, that’s the NY vs Elkhart thing. Every NY Bach I’ve played had some strange charm. Most times too strange. A few had grumpy slides, but my ‘87 LT slide made every NY 36 sing better. I like the 80s–90s Bachs. Best bet is a magical old NY bell and a younger slide that’s been cleaned up by someone who knows what they’re doing.

My 12 bell is from the 70s I think? It’s a corp. The 8 slide is a ghost, no serial number or model stamp, thin brace added later. I don’t know if it was made at the factory or assembled with unmarked Bach parts and .490 tubes by someone else, but it’s definitely an 8.

First horn I ever bought was an old Bach 16 with a silver plated tuning slide, maybe because it was my 16th birthday! I loved the sound at Dillon, nothing else came close. But on stage, it never had the punch. I was always the quiet trombone guy in loud bands and I hated that. Sold it, got a 3B. Kinda want to try that 16 again now that I know what I’m doing.

[dukesboneman]

I listened to countless people on this forum talk about how Bch`s don`t project.
I`ve NEVER has a problem with that except...
I had an LT16MG with a Kanstul H8 leadpipe. The Best playing small bore horn I ever owned.
However......
It was sooooo dark and rich that it didn`t cut thru a section. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made

[RJMason]

I listened to countless people on this forum talk about how Bch`s don`t project.
I`ve NEVER has a problem with that except...
I had an LT16MG with a Kanstul H8 leadpipe. The Best playing small bore horn I ever owned.
However......
It was sooooo dark and rich that it didn`t cut thru a section. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made

Do you play in 15-piece bands with 128 tracks blasting through arenas, or in EDM shows louder than jet engines, or with seven horns on the street in a brass band?

The small Bach was designed for radio gigs and pit orchestras, before amps, before subwoofers, and back when theaters were quieter and music didn’t try to crush your chest. Can’t say I agree with it completely, but such is the 21st century.

[tbdana]

I’ve played small bore Bachs, including the 16, 16G, 16M, and 16MG, since 1979. I’ve played them in every conceivable situation. No one has ever said that I can’t be heard, or my horn doesn’t project. I don’t know who is saying crap like this, but they are insane and inane.

[RJMason]

I’ve played small bore Bachs, including the 16, 16G, 16M, and 16MG, since 1979. I’ve played them in every conceivable situation. No one has ever said that I can’t be heard, or my horn doesn’t project. I don’t know who is saying crap like this, but they are insane and inane.

Trust me, there’s a whole world of situations where your precious Bach won’t cut it. You just haven’t suffered them yet.

Even my fiery Bach 8, one of the rare ones that doesn’t choke when things get hairy, still doesn’t quite punch through the fog like a King 3B, a Yamaha 891, a really good Conn 6H…or this new 48H I got that sounds like it escaped from a casino band in 1978.

[tbdana]

I’ve played small bore Bachs, including the 16, 16G, 16M, and 16MG, since 1979. I’ve played them in every conceivable situation. No one has ever said that I can’t be heard, or my horn doesn’t project. I don’t know who is saying crap like this, but they are insane and inane.

Trust me, there’s a whole world of situations where your precious Bach won’t cut it. You just haven’t suffered them yet.

Even my fiery Bach 8, one of the rare ones that doesn’t choke when things get hairy, still doesn’t quite punch through the fog like a King 3B, a Yamaha 891, a really good Conn 6H…or this new 48H I got that sounds like it escaped from a casino band in 1978.

Sorry, don’t trust you on that. I think that over the past 50 years I’ve probably played in almost every real world situation. Perhaps you could give me a specific reasonable example? I mean, yeah, it probably can’t cut through 10 F16s, but neither could any trombone. What’s a real, reasonable, actual situation a typical trombonist could face where they’d need a 3B because the 16M just can’t be heard but the 3B can be?

I’m guessing that if you can name one it will probably be a situation I would never put myself in.

[dukesboneman]

I just took possession of the 1940 Bach 16.
I`ve only played it for maybe 10 minutes but WOW !!!!
Looking forward to really putting it thru it`s passes tomorrow
So free blowing

[RJMason]

Trust me, there’s a whole world of situations where your precious Bach won’t cut it. You just haven’t suffered them yet.

Even my fiery Bach 8, one of the rare ones that doesn’t choke when things get hairy, still doesn’t quite punch through the fog like a King 3B, a Yamaha 891, a really good Conn 6H…or this new 48H I got that sounds like it escaped from a casino band in 1978.

Sorry, don’t trust you on that. I think that over the past 50 years I’ve probably played in almost every real world situation. Perhaps you could give me a specific reasonable example? I mean, yeah, it probably can’t cut through 10 F16s, but neither could any trombone. What’s a real, reasonable, actual situation a typical trombonist could face where they’d need a 3B because the 16M just can’t be heard but the 3B can be?

I’m guessing that if you can name one it will probably be a situation I would never put myself in.

1. Played SpottieOttieDopalicious with Major Lazer at Gov Ball. Had full pyro, well over 100 tracks, dancehall vocals echoing through space, 80,000 people screaming. 3B over Bach. Vin Gordon sound.

2. Soundchecked at Daytona 500 while cars tore past. 125,000 in the stands. 3B over Bach.

3. I did use a Bach at Nissan Stadium, 67,000 people. Sweet up close, dead on the broadcast. Yamaha bari buried it. Did the same gig the year before with a Lawler. That one roared.

4. A/B’d the Bach and Yamaha on tour, same FOH mix, NBA arenas. Yamaha wins, no contest.

5. What kind of drummers are you playing with? And what cymbals? Some (not all) of these Bachs can’t punch through a modern ride.

6. Nobody’s out there marching all-Bach 16s.

But in a lounge at 3am? Or in front of KM184s at Ocean Way? Sure. A hot RE-20 on a club date? Absolutely. They can sound like paintings. But 21st century stages can be an entirely different beast. I love these horns, but they don’t always love the gig I’m on.

[RJMason]

I just took possession of the 1940 Bach 16.
I`ve only played it for maybe 10 minutes but WOW !!!!
Looking forward to really putting it thru it`s passes tomorrow
So free blowing

Dream era for a Bach!!! Enjoy it!!

[LetItSlide]

Great to hear you found a really good horn!

[tbdana]

1. Played SpottieOttieDopalicious with Major Lazer at Gov Ball. Had full pyro, well over 100 tracks, dancehall vocals echoing through space, 80,000 people screaming. 3B over Bach. Vin Gordon sound.

2. Soundchecked at Daytona 500 while cars tore past. 125,000 in the stands. 3B over Bach.

3. I did use a Bach at Nissan Stadium, 67,000 people. Sweet up close, dead on the broadcast. Yamaha bari buried it. Did the same gig the year before with a Lawler. That one roared.

4. A/B’d the Bach and Yamaha on tour, same FOH mix, NBA arenas. Yamaha wins, no contest.

5. What kind of drummers are you playing with? And what cymbals? Some (not all) of these Bachs can’t punch through a modern ride.

6. Nobody’s out there marching all-Bach 16s.

But in a lounge at 3am? Or in front of KM184s at Ocean Way? Sure. A hot RE-20 on a club date? Absolutely. They can sound like paintings. But 21st century stages can be an entirely different beast. I love these horns, but they don’t always love the gig I’m on.

LOL! Okay, I suppose you got me. I've never had to play over full pyro, 100 tracks and 80,000 screaming people without a mic, so I'll take your word for it that the 3B can somehow cut through all that. My 3B couldn't, but whatever. Same with the Daytona 500. I somehow don't think any trombone is up to those, but if you can do it with a 3B, all the power to ya.

I do love a good 3B, but I've never had one that could do that.

[RJMason]

1. Played SpottieOttieDopalicious with Major Lazer at Gov Ball. Had full pyro, well over 100 tracks, dancehall vocals echoing through space, 80,000 people screaming. 3B over Bach. Vin Gordon sound.

2. Soundchecked at Daytona 500 while cars tore past. 125,000 in the stands. 3B over Bach.

3. I did use a Bach at Nissan Stadium, 67,000 people. Sweet up close, dead on the broadcast. Yamaha bari buried it. Did the same gig the year before with a Lawler. That one roared.

4. A/B’d the Bach and Yamaha on tour, same FOH mix, NBA arenas. Yamaha wins, no contest.

5. What kind of drummers are you playing with? And what cymbals? Some (not all) of these Bachs can’t punch through a modern ride.

6. Nobody’s out there marching all-Bach 16s.

But in a lounge at 3am? Or in front of KM184s at Ocean Way? Sure. A hot RE-20 on a club date? Absolutely. They can sound like paintings. But 21st century stages can be an entirely different beast. I love these horns, but they don’t always love the gig I’m on.

LOL! Okay, I suppose you got me. I've never had to play over full pyro, 100 tracks and 80,000 screaming people without a mic, so I'll take your word for it that the 3B can somehow cut through all that. My 3B couldn't, but whatever. Same with the Daytona 500. I somehow don't think any trombone is up to those, but if you can do it with a 3B, all the power to ya.

I do love a good 3B, but I've never had one that could do that.

Sorry these situations are ridiculous but true. And honestly, the trombone isn’t often optimized for them. And despite them, I still love the Bach 16 more than the 3B!

Also, I'd rather be watching your gigs, hearing a trombone sound like the way you play that 16MG. You sound beautiful on it on your records. I just somehow end up doing this kind of work. It’s fun, but def requires the right tool for hyperniche situations. I can’t say it’s a little Bach in my experience. YMMV, always!