Olds George Roberts P-22 Single Bass 1965 ( TIS ) Lead-Pipe

[TheConnArtist70H]

Hey everyone - Needing a little advice on this.

I'm considering buying the above Horn that's available, I believe it's the exact same model shown in this image of George in the Studio, I'm pretty sure it has a 0.565 single bore, however, I don't know what the Lead-pipe shank Taper is on this model.

I'm hoping JohnL may be able to pop in and maybe help me out

Of course I would be grateful to anyone else who has experience with these quite rare horns and let me know.
I play DE set up all the time now ( LBK / LB114 / K8C ) all of the time, so depending on what info comes back, hoping Doug might be able to supply a suitable shank if needed.

To be honest, I normally get these Lead-pipes pulled by Brad if he's doing other work, but on this occasion, I would
only need the Lead-pipe pulling so maybe a Rath visit on the Cards......

Thanks, Al

[Posaunus]

Of course I would be grateful to anyone else who has experience with these quite rare horns and let me know.
I play DE set up all the time now ( LBK / LB114 / K8C ) all of the time, so depending on what info comes back, hoping Doug might be able to supply a suitable shank if needed.

I assume your 1965 P- 22 has the unique Olds tapered leadpipe. (JohnL can verify.) Doug Elliott can definitely make a K8 Shank with that taper, perfectly compatible with your LB K Cup. I'm very happy with the D3*/Olds Shank he made for my Olds Recording.

Good luck!

[JohnL]

Something doesn't add up here. As far as I know, the P-22 wasn't introduced until the 1970's, and was a bell-tuning instrument.

[elmsandr]

Something doesn't add up here. As far as I know, the P-22 wasn't introduced until the 1970's, and was a bell-tuning instrument.

What was the slide tuning George Robert’s model? S22? I think the error here is model number, not the description of the horn.

Cheers,
Andy

[JohnL]

Something doesn't add up here. As far as I know, the P-22 wasn't introduced until the 1970's, and was a bell-tuning instrument.

What was the slide tuning George Robert’s model? S22? I think the error here is model number, not the description of the horn.

The slide tuning GR was, indeed, the S-22. There were actually two different versions of the S-22; the first was TIS and the second TIB.

1965 and TIS are consistent; with those two pieces of information, I would not be surprised if it had the earlier Olds large shank receiver (roughly .010" undersize). Doug Elliott should be able to furnish appropriately-sized shanks.

But I'm still left wondering about the reference to a P-22. Some people can't resist pulling on a loose thread; I'm that way about inconsistent item descriptions.

[TheConnArtist70H]

Just to be clear that I'm no expert on the Olds Basses, to be honest, there are quite a few models that have been sold on the various platforms with varying model names. So, the horn I'm thinking of buying only Has the engraving "George Roberts Model" and No model number showing so my big daft fault for assuming this was a P-22.

The only reason I put this model number in my original thread was because during my recent online research, I found one recent listing by the Brass Exchange showing this exact same horn shown as a P-22 ( TIS ) which is the exact same Horn I'm thinking about buying, also the website Horn-u-copia seems to refer this as a P-22 ?

For some unknown reason, I unable to add any file attachments which is a little frustrating so unable to provide examples like the above sorry



Also - The last thing I want to do is buy this Horn if say, the rotors were very small and difficult to blow through.
Mind I must say there are some very positive comments about these older Basses.

Hoping I ain't opened a can of worms on this one.....

Thanks, Al

[JohnL]

Do you have any pics of the horn you want to buy?

[JohnL]

Sorry for the back--to-back post...

Olds had a tendency not to put model numbers on things, which doesn't make things easy.

I went back through the catalogs.

The 1970 Olds trombone brochure on my site shows an "S-22 George Roberts Bass Trombone"; it's TIS.

The 1973 Olds Catalog on my site shows an "S-22 Olds Bass Trombone" (note that there is no mention of George Roberts); its tuning slide is in the bell section.

As for Brass Exchange? Is this the horn you're thinking of?
https://thebrass-exchange.com/content/o ... s-trombone
That's an S-22. You can tell by the valve. Notice that they say: "Vintage bass most likely early 60's."; that tells me that they didn't check the serial number list ('cause if they had, they would have used more specific language). Based on its configuration (small valve, bell tuning) and in the absence of a serial number, I'd provisionally date it from the early 1970's.

Check the note at the bottom of this page on my site. It specifically addresses how to spot the difference between a P-series bass and an S-series bass.

[TheConnArtist70H]

No problem at all, and I share your frustration with them not putting their model numbers on every horn, life would be much easier.

I've attached a link to the Horn that was sold on the Brass Exchange, this is the Exact same as the One I'm thinking
of buying, the serial number on the one I'm thinking of buying dates the horn back to 1965, which was a fantastic era
as this was the year I was born ......

The Brass exchange list this as a P-22 George Roberts Model.

https://images.app.goo.gl/M7pTU6YLZ4tw3xSK8

I hope this helps.
I did see the one that you had in your last post but certain that was from around the late 60's ?

[Burgerbob]

Yup, that's definitely not a P model with the larger valve.

[JohnL]

I've attached a link to the Horn that was sold on the Brass Exchange, this is the Exact same as the One I'm thinking
of buying, the serial number on the one I'm thinking of buying dates the horn back to 1965, which was a fantastic era
as this was the year I was born ......

The Brass exchange list this as a P-22 George Roberts Model.

https://images.app.goo.gl/M7pTU6YLZ4tw3xSK8

Full listing for that horn: https://thebrass-exchange.com/content/o ... mbone-mint

Arg! I can almost make out serial number.

It's a TIS S-22. I have the feeling that someone at Brass Exchange thinks that all GR's at P-22's.

That style of valve (with the "can" on the back side) is from early in the production run. Does the one you're looking at have the same sort of valve?

I did see the one that you had in your last post but certain that was from around the late 60's ?

It's bell tuning, and the 1970 Olds brochure indicates that Olds was still making the TIS version at that point. Absent a serial number, that's what I have to go with.

[Posaunus]

That style of valve (with the "can" on the back side) is from early in the production run. Does the one you're looking at have the same sort of valve?

John,
Would you say that this valve is a bit under-sized for a 0.565" bore bass trombone?

[Burgerbob]

That style of valve (with the "can" on the back side) is from early in the production run. Does the one you're looking at have the same sort of valve?

Well, Olds certainly thought so.

[JohnL]

That style of valve (with the "can" on the back side) is from early in the production run. Does the one you're looking at have the same sort of valve?

John,
Would you say that this valve is a bit under-sized for a 0.565" bore bass trombone?

I don't have an S-22 to measure, so I'll have to reference the measurements on an S-20 with what looks like a similar valve. The rotor core is tapered; it's ~.975" at the middle. Obviously, there's not nearly enough room for a full-diameter .585" (or even .565") passage.

[TheConnArtist70H]

Hi everyone, apologies for my late reply as I've been to work. So getting back to the Valve that John showing a Can on rotor connect side, which seems to be around 3/8" in thickness. The plate on mine looks like SS and is around 1/8" in thickness. I have a photo of it but for some unknown reason, I keep getting the yellow triangle error when the file is added so unable to show you what I mean...... I've saved this image in all the different formats i.e.JPEG, PDF etc but nothing seems to work. I a little reluctant to post the link in case someone else sees it and buys it, any suggestions on how I can get this image downloaded on here.

[BGuttman]

... I am a little reluctant to post the link in case someone else sees it and buys it, any suggestions on how I can get this image downloaded on here.

You can just post a picture and nobody will see the link unless they do some prying.

1. Right click on the image you want to post. Select "copy image address" or "copy image URL".
2. In a reply post, place the image address between IMG tags like this

Code: Select all

limg]image address goes here[/img]

3. Your image will appear in the post like this:

[TheConnArtist70H]

Thanks for your assistance. Can you please clarify where between IMG Tags is on this page.
I can see the Insert Image tab but when you click on this, two img quotes comes up and not the image I'm trying to post like you showed in your post.

So I'm posting this message not knowing if my file is shown or not.....

[TheConnArtist70H]

Got it Bruce, just me being

Hope this one works.....

[TheConnArtist70H]

Yo Adrian...... I Did it..... Phew ! so there you go, this is the actual valve / casing.
So the Can is nowhere near the size of the Brass Exchange P-22 ..... or should we not Call it the P-22 until we
know what it is

[Posaunus]

Nice photo. I expect that JohnL is right, and this is an S-22 variant, not a P-22.

In any case, here's a hint from JohnL, for any of you who own an Olds trombone with a valve like this:
If your valve has a screw like the one shown, you must remove it (unscrew it with a flat-blade screwdriver) and put a few drops of rotor oil in the screw hole, in order to lubricate the valve. This is the only way to get oil to the valve back plate. (Some Olds valves have an "Oil here" marking, but not this one.) These valves will operate smoothly and noiselessly for a long time.

[TheConnArtist70H]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback. Can I ask if this Valve is going to be stuffy compared to say my Conn 70H from 1952, or should it still be open enough without too much resistance as I heard Olds opened up the Valve ports on the later models. Also, how will I know what Lead-pipe taper this would have ? Or would I just need to find out
if I decided to buy it.

And my last question, one of the Inner Slides has quite bad wear, are New Inners available, or is there another
brand out there that would fit if I needed to replace.

My Conn 70H has quite severe wear on one of the Inners but to be quite honest, it is as smooth as butter

[TheConnArtist70H]

Just an update. I decided to go ahead and Buy this Horn, which does look to be very similar to the S-22 George Roberts on the Olds Catalogue that John kindly has showing in his website, the only difference I can see just from
the photo's that were on the sellers website ( which have since been deleted ) my bad, is that the Bell material looks
to be Gold / Rose brass and not Red Brass or Re-O-Loy which looks somewhat darker.

Also - I'm 99% certain it does have the straight 0.565 bore, and 0.585 rotor so I'm not too worried about this valve being stuffy at all, the valve casing actually looks slightly larger than my Conn 70H.

The Seller also sent it with the Original Olds case which looks like it was the Top end spec going by the materials
and patterns used, I've never seen a Trombone case like this, only an Olds Trumpet case which looks identical.

I've attached a few Pics if anyone is interested. This Horn should arrive in around 4-5 days time, I can't wait.


[img]blob:https://onedrive.live.com/48d4cbe5-9973 ... d5b48c0325[/img]
[img]blob:https://onedrive.live.com/fcfae61b-186d ... 6f36a04979[/img]
[img]blob:https://onedrive.live.com/48753ec4-c093 ... 0afe4086a8[/img]
[img]blob:https://onedrive.live.com/46865ef2-a19f ... 5b36a1e8ed[/img]

I'm entertaining tonight so won't be able to comment further until tomorrow.

Have a great Day.... Al

[TheConnArtist70H]

Well that did not work, so I'll try one more other way fingers crossed....

[TheConnArtist70H]

And a few more.....

[8thnote181]

You could always go this route. I just got my Olds back today. I'll post more as soon possible.

[Burgerbob]

Now that I would like to play.

[8thnote181]

I had Kevin at Heritage Music do my conversation. Oddly enough, he too has an Olds S-22. This is like a before and after shot.

The whole conversion started because the Olds linkage snapped and ultimately warped the rotor. The trigger is so unique that it's impossible to get parts. If I didn't love the sound it would have been easier to get a used double bass. I have a hard time destroying the classics. We have to save them!