TromboneChat

A section mate claims the two eighth notes in the first movement of the 5th symphony should be articulated but I say they are tied. Pic of notation in question below....

Thoughts?

I've always played them with a legato tongue. Each note has to be articulated, but a hard articulation sounds harsh.

Tchaikovsky could have easily written a quarter note instead. He didn't. I assume he didn't want it to sound like a quarter note.

They are articulated legato. Or tied.

You're welcome.

I play them tied, no rearticulation. Unless the conductor or principal ask me otherwise of course.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Tue May 13, 2025 6:29 pm I play them tied, no rearticulation. Unless the conductor or principal ask me otherwise of course.

Likewise. The articulations have to match the 2nd clarinet and 4th horn, as well as the syncopated string entries that precede.

I think you need to take a "cue" from the tied notes in your cues.

Always played as one note, everywhere I've played it over the years. Never listened to 2nd clarinet and 4th horn...not about to start now.

Always played them as a tie - every recording I have is the same.

Jim Scott

blast wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 7:55 am Always played as one note, everywhere I've played it over the years. Never listened to 2nd clarinet and 4th horn...not about to start now.

My wife - who plays both clarinet and horn and we will probably play tchaikovsky 5 together this summer - would probably kill me if I said this

But it could be that our musical interpretation of this symphony will be a bit different.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Tue May 13, 2025 4:50 pm Tchaikovsky could have easily written a quarter note instead. He didn't. I assume he didn't want it to sound like a quarter note.

Except that its in 6/8. He wanted a syncopation, which is entirely characteristic of his writing.

GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 10:10 am

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Tue May 13, 2025 4:50 pm Tchaikovsky could have easily written a quarter note instead. He didn't. I assume he didn't want it to sound like a quarter note.

Except that its in 6/8. He wanted a syncopation, which is entirely characteristic of his writing.

Yes. I even looked at the autograph copy of Tchaikovsky's score and I agree that by writing the figure that way it helps with the accuracy.

Also, during the most recent rehearsal the conductor (who knows the work very well!) confirmed that the two eighths are tied and not articulated. Sometimes small details can make a difference.

Matt

I've always played it tied, and I'm not planning to change. And it sounds tied in any recording I've ever heard, although it's hard to tell because the strings play at the same time the trombones would re-articulate the note.

But... I think you could make a good case either way. I looked at the manuscript, and as mentioned, it is indeed written with that slur/tie marking over it. And there are many places in other parts where a syncopated quarter note is written as a tie, and clearly not intended to be re-articulated. But it looks like that only happens when the quarter note goes across a strong beat, and I believe it's an informal rule that you don't write a syncopated quarter note across a strong beat. There are places where a syncopated quarter note is placed after an 1/8th rest on the first beat of the bar, so clearly he didn't consider it a blanket rule that you never do that. On the other hand, maybe he was just making it more clear since the syncopated quarter note in the trombone part we're talking about is at the end of the bar. I don't see any other cases of a syncopated quarter at the end of a bar, so we have nothing to compare it to. And lastly, there are no other examples that I can see of Tchaikovsky ever putting a slur mark over repeated notes.