TromboneChat

I was looking at different types of trombones, intrigued by what exists and I stumbles across this.

https://cderksen.home.xs4all.nl/Conn10H1920image.html

It was labelled as the Conn 10H trombone with an independent trill valve. And this has fully peaked my interest in instruments. As I've always struggled with playing trills myself due to my lack of skill with fast lip slurs.

I assume this type of instrument is not common as I've never seen anything like it but now, I'm wondering where I might possibly find one BUT more importantly if they are any good.

I could imagine the trombone could be very unique, but it might not be the best timbre especially is a big band context.

Anybody know anything?

Nobody makes trill valve tenors any more. Any one you find will be about 100 years old. Trill valves were popular with soloists in turn-of-the 20th Century bands, but even so were still not common.

The Innes (before Conn had the H lineup), 10H, and 11H (high and low pitch tuning slides) were all slight variations of the same design. There were also a few variations of larger bore Innes models apparently but I have yet to even see one. I have heard/read about 9 examples of the Innes variations that still exist but only photo/video evidence of 7 existing, including my own. there probably exist a small number of other examples out in the wild somewhere.

I own a Conn Innes from 1914 with high and low pitch tuning slides, so it's roughly equivalent to the later 11H. without the valve depressed, it plays pretty much just exactly as a straight horn as the path through the piston valve is straight and without so much as a bend. the valve is pretty much only used for trills and comes with it's own tuning slide, though i imagine it's more useful for emptying spit when necessary than actually tuning the valve.

mine is marked as Medium bore so that would fall kind of into the Conn 4H and pre-H Artist models marked M. It pretty much plays exactly like my medium bore Artist model, 4H, and 4H-LW. just with the addition of a trill valve. Sound, feel, timbre wise, it also very closely resembles a 4H, basically with as much variation as one 4H might from another.

it, along with my 64H bass are both awkward to hold with the piston valve, though not uncomfortable, just a tad awkward, at least for me. as with any horn of the time period, how each example of the Innes variations play will vary. Mine plays quite well and is a fun kinda gimmicky 4H size and feel horn.

I am not looking to sell mine, but if you wanted to buy one, or any of the Innes variations in any bore, your best bet is to watch the collectors pages and markets and hope one pops up. prices will vary A LOT because of raw rarity and also condition and finish variations.

I apologize if this is a dumb question I'm new to fancy trombone things. But do you happen to know if like custom built trombones could have it or if its possible in the first place? And if it is technically a possibility, how much would you estimate it cost?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 7:19 pm Nobody makes trill valve tenors any more.

I suppose one could argue the various superbones have a trill valve.

WilliamC3553 wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 9:40 pm I apologize if this is a dumb question I'm new to fancy trombone things. But do you happen to know if like custom built trombones could have it or if its possible in the first place? And if it is technically a possibility, how much would you estimate it cost?

The easiest thing is probably to have a tech shorten an F-attachment loop on an existing instrument. Couple hundred bucks, maybe?

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 11:55 pm ...

The easiest thing is probably to have a tech shorten an F-attachment loop on an existing instrument. Couple hundred bucks, maybe?

The issue might be that a ½ step loop might be too short on a rotor valve (and even worse on an Axial). All of the trill valves I've seen used piston valves.

That said, there are trill valves for alto trombones. Are these whole step?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 3:33 am

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 11:55 pm ...

The easiest thing is probably to have a tech shorten an F-attachment loop on an existing instrument. Couple hundred bucks, maybe?

The issue might be that a ½ step loop might be too short on a rotor valve (and even worse on an Axial). All of the trill valves I've seen used piston valves.

That said, there are trill valves for alto trombones. Are these whole step?

Actually, 1/2 step loop isn't a problem on standard rotor,
you could see it on "oval" tenors and baritones.
2nd (middle) rotor on photo is 1/2 step.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 3:33 am

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Wed May 14, 2025 11:55 pm ...

The easiest thing is probably to have a tech shorten an F-attachment loop on an existing instrument. Couple hundred bucks, maybe?

The issue might be that a ½ step loop might be too short on a rotor valve (and even worse on an Axial). All of the trill valves I've seen used piston valves.

That said, there are trill valves for alto trombones. Are these whole step?

Bruce…. Rotary valve baritones/euphoniums exist…. As do trumpets and even a piccolo trumpet. It’s not simple, but you can make a 1/2 step rotor. Total added loop length is ~6” (a little more, but you get the idea).

Some of the alto trombone trill valves are in fact a 1/2 step and with a long enough tuning slide area to hold a longer slide to get them to Bb.

My current issue building a 1/2 step rotor is getting a tight enough crook to be straight port to port on the rotor.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 5:35 am Some of the alto trombone trill valves are in fact a 1/2 step and with a long enough tuning slide area to hold a longer slide to get them to Bb.

A superbone gives you both whole-step and half-step trill valves. And a bonus G-attachment that is so popular these days.

AtomicClock wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 9:12 pm

elmsandr wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 5:35 am Some of the alto trombone trill valves are in fact a 1/2 step and with a long enough tuning slide area to hold a longer slide to get them to Bb.

A superbone gives you both whole-step and half-step trill valves. And a bonus G-attachment that is so popular these days.

Yes, that’s my current project!
/waggles eyebrows

Cheers,
Andy

Trill valve? SMH

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 2:49 pm Trill valve? SMH

Dana,

Don't shake your head to trill - shake your lips!

The trill is produced with the chin. There is a good trill valve, it's called the F attachment. You just do your lip trills that you can't do on the Bb side on the F side instead.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 4:05 pm The trill is produced with the chin. There is a good trill valve, it's called the F attachment. You just do your lip trills that you can't do on the Bb side on the F side instead.

There's an introduction to learning trills by a horn player called "My Trills Stink." He does his flexibilities with the F valve until F above the staff then switches to Bb.

timothy42b wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 6:29 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon May 19, 2025 4:05 pm The trill is produced with the chin. There is a good trill valve, it's called the F attachment. You just do your lip trills that you can't do on the Bb side on the F side instead.

There's an introduction to learning trills by a horn player called "My Trills Stink." He does his flexibilities with the F valve until F above the staff then switches to Bb.

The idea is that there are different options in F vs Bb. Try to trill a Bb to C on the Bb side. It's very difficult. Now try the same thing but with the F attachment depressed, in flat 3rd. That sort of idea.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 7:25 am

timothy42b wrote: ↑Tue May 20, 2025 6:29 am

There's an introduction to learning trills by a horn player called "My Trills Stink." He does his flexibilities with the F valve until F above the staff then switches to Bb.

The idea is that there are different options in F vs Bb. Try to trill a Bb to C on the Bb side. It's very difficult. Now try the same thing but with the F attachment depressed, in flat 3rd. That sort of idea.

Which raises a question. Bb to C is hard, because the partial is Bb to D. Should we always try to trill one step rather than what the note makes easiest?

See, and I would assume he means the Bb above that, where you can trill to C on the Bb side of the horn.

Cheers,
Andy

elmsandr wrote: ↑Wed May 21, 2025 9:20 am See, and I would assume he means the Bb above that, where you can trill to C on the Bb side of the horn.

Cheers,
Andy

No, I'm saying you should keep the F attachment depressed, and play Bb in flat third. This Bb:

Keeping the valve depressed, the Bb/C can now be lip trilled. That C much closer position-wise to the Bb on the F side than on the Bb side.

With an F attachment you have all your normal trills you can do on the straight Bb trombone, PLUS almost all the lip trills you can do on the F horn (until you run out of slide). Plus some less effective mechanics trills below the Bb partial.


This is the reason why Lindberg chose a quart valve (Bb in this case) for his Eb alto. A quart valve nearly doubles the lip trill options you have.

I wish there were a more useful gimmick, like a play the f*ck in tune valve.

tbdana wrote: ↑Wed May 21, 2025 9:41 am I wish there were a more useful gimmick, like a play the f*ck in tune valve.

That's the whole gimmick with the slide. If you gliss everything you're in tune at least some of the time.

Personally, I'd rather have one of those valve articulator things (doesn't change the pitch but gives you valve articulation, by just being a piston with two straight-through ports) than a trill valve. That would actually be useful and bring something different to the table.

Okay, I'll ask it a different way.

Lip trills are a perennial sticking point for the amateur. Judging by comments here, most amateurs work the Arban flexibilities for decades but never get the knack.

Years ago, someone asserted that he or she had learned the partial-to-partial trill, which is often a third, but that wasn't really correct, and they went on to ensure their trill was only a whole step.

I do like the F valve option that harrison described.