the move to Major and Minor?

Post Reply
User avatar
robcat2075
Posts: 1570
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:58 pm

the move to Major and Minor?

Post by robcat2075 »

In an NYT article about a topic with little to do with music, the writer takes moment to describe her father.
He’s a full-time professor at a state arts school and a half-time music director at a Presbyterian church. Not coincidentally, for 25 years he was also working on a book, which was finally published last year by Oxford University Press. It tackles, as the first sentence reads, 'one of the most elusive questions in music history: the nature of the transition from the Renaissance modes to the major and minor keys of the high Baroque.'
Has that been an elusive question?

In my music history classes it was not taught as great mystery... people preferred the stronger indication of tonality that the major and minor keys created.

I suppose that does gloss over WHY people changed their minds after 2000+ years of modes. :shuffle:

How was this presented to the others of you who studied such things?
>>Robert Holmén<<

Hear me as I play my horn
SteveM
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2021 5:30 pm
Location: Anacortes WA

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by SteveM »

I'm not sure if this has been regarded as an "elusive" question, but it is a very interesting topic, both from a theory perspective and from an aesthetic one. To me, this sounds like it may be a very interesting book.
AndrewMeronek
Posts: 1346
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:09 pm
Location: Detroit area
Contact:

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

I've never seen a particularly good explanation. I suspect part of the problem is that a lot of the music from the transition period - roughly early 1600s, Monteverdi's time - is now lost.

My take is that there probably always was at least some music that tended to our familiar major and minor modes (think tavern tunes, work tunes, dances, etc.), and that written music started to incorporate some of these musical ideas and didn't strictly relate to Church music, like in early opera.

It's also a notable development that chord-like structure in music was becoming more accepted, beyond the strict counterpoint of Renaissance music, and our major and minor modes have the strongest I, IV, and V chords.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
User avatar
LeTromboniste
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am
Location: Fribourg, CH
Contact:

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by LeTromboniste »

Warning: skip this if you don't like long posts :lol:

It is elusive because it didn't happen with a clean break. And it's the result of a number of changes happening on a number of different aspects of the language, somewhat independently and not all exactly at the same time, over 100 to 150 years. At the turn of the 20th century, the tonal system in classical music basically collapsed and new languages were invented and developed in response, sometimes in opposition, to tonality, all within a period of maybe 30 years or so. It is tempting, and often the way we are taught, to see every major change in music history through the lenses of reaction and great revolutionary innovation, but in reality, that collapse of the tonal language in classical music is pretty unique. Most other changes in music history happened slower and much more organically, so the borders can be extremely blurry. In the baroque period, the tonal system didn't suddenly replace the modal system, it coalesced/emerged out of it. So it's not so much that people "preferred" something or "changed their mind" in a revolutionary way. It's an evolution that took place over several generations, and some of it was the result of innovations and additions to the modal language that initially reinforced it rather than moved away from it. It's a transition that also happened while many other aspects of the musical language and aesthetic did not change (hence why its all still considered part of the baroque era, and not split into two). For example, Schütz and Bach still have more in common overall than Bach and Berlioz, even though Schütz wrote modal music and Bach and Berlioz tonal music. That all makes it really hard to establish when exactly tonality starts and what if anything itinially distinguishes it from modality.

Ultimately, I think many scholars agree that one of the key elements that led to the development of tonality was basso continuo. As time went by, some set ways of realising certain bassline movements became more and more standardised (no matter the mode), making the lines between modes more and more blurry. By the time you get to the "rule of the octave" in the very early 18th century, you pretty much don't have distinct modes anymore (yet tonality had also not yet fully cristalized into the harmonic language shared by the classical and romantic composers either). Another element without which tonality would not have been possible was the gradual shift away from meantone tuning in favour of temperaments that sacrifice pure harmonies to allow more transpositions. Initially, that's not necessarily a bad thing for modality as it allows modes to be transposed to more different positions. But it also accelerated the modes losing their distinct identities because one was no longer forced to "stay in the mode" by the mere availability or unavailability of certain notes.


Somewhat of a tangent: one of the clearest examples in modern musical theory/history that, to me, shows we overall don't have a full understanding of the question, at least in mainstream music pedagogy, is that the tonal minor mode is still usually defined as the Aeolian mode. In reality, it is an amalgam of several of the modes as they gradually lost their distinctive individual traits, but I would argue it predominantly corresponds not to the former Aeolian mode, but to Dorian. Dorian was the most commonly-used of all modes, and unlike the other "minor" modes, it already contained in itself many of the characteristics of the tonal minor mode, and, notably, has all of the notes of the tonal minor. The raised 7th degree is simply the result of creating cadences, and happens in every mode except Phrygian. Dorian naturally has the high 6th degree, but the lowered 6th degree is extremely common, as a result of the "fa super la" rule of solmisation whereby one only going out of the hexachord by one note above "la" should always go only a semitone higher, even if the next note should be a whole tone higher and that therefore requires adding an accidental flat. Because it happens that the 5th degree in the Dorian mode can more often than not be solmised as "la", the 6th degree very often ends up being flattened, and the Dorian mode effectively contains both versions of the sixth degree on a more or less equal footing, just like the tonal minor. In Renaissance and early Baroque music, Aeolian has the low 6th degree naturally, but the raised 6th degree only ever happens melodically at cadential ornaments. Most treatments of the 6th degree in the tonal language make perfect sense in Dorian but make no sense in Aeolian. No coincidence either than many high baroque and even early classical works in minor use the key signature for Dorian (G minor with 1 flat, D minor with no alterations, etc.)
Maximilien Brisson
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
User avatar
BGuttman
Posts: 6852
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:19 am
Location: Cow Hampshire

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by BGuttman »

Thank you, Maximilien. This is a very scholarly response. I'm going to have to read it a couple of times to get everything you have to say. This is one of the good things that are here on TromboneChat.
Bruce Guttman
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orchestra
"Almost Professional"
User avatar
robcat2075
Posts: 1570
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 2:58 pm

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by robcat2075 »

AndrewMeronek wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 6:53 pm My take is that there probably always was at least some music that tended to our familiar major and minor modes (think tavern tunes, work tunes, dances, etc.), and that written music started to incorporate some of these musical ideas and didn't strictly relate to Church music, like in early opera.
This is a thesis that immediately rings true, I suspect is true, and yet was never discussed in any of the histories I've encountered.

The very short form of those tunes and the fact that they accompany lyrics containing complete sentences much like one would speak, with a full stop at the end, would do much to encourage melodies that seemed to have finality.

Overall, the existence "popular" music is rarely admitted in music histories except to note the some common song had been snuck into a "parody" mass.
>>Robert Holmén<<

Hear me as I play my horn
HappyAmateur
Posts: 10
Joined: Fri Apr 11, 2025 10:03 am

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by HappyAmateur »

robcat2075 wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 4:02 pmIn my music history classes it was not taught as great mystery... people preferred the stronger indication of tonality that the major and minor keys created.

I suppose that does gloss over WHY people changed their minds after 2000+ years of modes. :shuffle:
I'm super ignorant on the topic, but anecdotally as a singer in a classical chorus, I overwhelmingly prefer Renaissance pieces when singing a cappella or minimally accompanied to anything later. Something about Renaissance music works so with with vocals.

On the other hand, give me an orchestra to sing with and I love later pieces even more. But I only ever get to sing with orchestras in dress rehearsal and the performance itself. I don't enjoy the very same music nearly as much when we're just rehearsing with a piano. My favorite rehearsals are when we do Renaissance pieces.

So I wonder if the big driver of the "why" was technology... you start getting a lot of new instruments, which means composers have lots of different sounds to blend together - and listeners get a lot more to listen to.

Video killed the radio star, so to speak.
User avatar
LeTromboniste
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2018 7:22 am
Location: Fribourg, CH
Contact:

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by LeTromboniste »

robcat2075 wrote: Mon May 19, 2025 12:00 pm
AndrewMeronek wrote: Sun May 18, 2025 6:53 pm My take is that there probably always was at least some music that tended to our familiar major and minor modes (think tavern tunes, work tunes, dances, etc.), and that written music started to incorporate some of these musical ideas and didn't strictly relate to Church music, like in early opera.
This is a thesis that immediately rings true, I suspect is true, and yet was never discussed in any of the histories I've encountered.

The very short form of those tunes and the fact that they accompany lyrics containing complete sentences much like one would speak, with a full stop at the end, would do much to encourage melodies that seemed to have finality.

Overall, the existence "popular" music is rarely admitted in music histories except to note the some common song had been snuck into a "parody" mass.
Mmh. I'm not convinced. A lot (really, a lot) of the the Renaissance music we do sing, play and hear is secular music that everyone back then would know, that they heard on the streets and at parties and what not. And we do know a lot of truly popular music that really anybody could sing, not just trained musicians. And while that music is usually simpler than "professional" music, and often trophic with shorter, simpler tunes, it's still definitely modal music, not tonal. Just as there is a lot of tonal music that is not based on simple and short tunes. I'm also not sure what you mean about simple tunes with finality. Modal tunes still have cadences and can very much have finality. In fact, you tend to hear a lot more cadences in modal music than in tonal music, generally speaking. Every cadence pattern and voice leading you hear in tonal music originates in the modal language. I think maybe you mean that the modal music you're familiar with is very contrapuntal and through-composed? That's a different question altogether. Tonal music can be complex in its countrepoint just as modal music can be simple, homophonic and strophic. You can have a very simple tune in myxolidian, or in phrygian, that is not going to sound tonal. I think simple and short tunes are more a distinguishing feature of popular vs art music, of any language, than a distinction between languages.

The key distinguishing feature of the tonal language is that it is built around a harmonic discourse, where chords follow a certain syntax firmly established in the language. You're basically always in a circle of 5ths to get to the dominant and from there back to the tonic, with any number of mechanisms through which you can substitute chords or deviate within the circle. The modal language of the Renaissance and early baroque is overall built around melodies adhering to set modes, and harmonies based on contrapuntal combinations, not chord progressions or expectations of which chord should logically follow the next. That is true even of very simple popular music. You do get set chord progressions that became very common both in popular and art music (ground basses), but these are first the result of counterpoint, and whatever melody or melodies you add on top is essentially an extra layer of counterpoint. Some of these progressions happen to also make sense from a tonal perspective, but many don't.

Tonality emerged from modality and retained much of its vocabulary and basic "grammar", and common contrapuntal combinations from the Renaissance and Baroque are baked into the very fabric of the tonal language, so a lot of earlier modal music can sound superficially almost tonal (and conversely some tonal music still makes complete sense from a modal perspective). But a lot of even very simple modal music, to be analysed through the lense of tonal functional harmony, requires invoking all sorts of deviations and substitutions that are way more complex than the music itself.
Maximilien Brisson
www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
AndrewMeronek
Posts: 1346
Joined: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:09 pm
Location: Detroit area
Contact:

Re: the move to Major and Minor?

Post by AndrewMeronek »

LeTromboniste wrote: Mon May 19, 2025 3:56 pm Tonality emerged from modality and retained much of its vocabulary and basic "grammar", and common contrapuntal combinations from the Renaissance and Baroque are baked into the very fabric of the tonal language, so a lot of earlier modal music can sound superficially almost tonal (and conversely some tonal music still makes complete sense from a modal perspective). But a lot of even very simple modal music, to be analysed through the lense of tonal functional harmony, requires invoking all sorts of deviations and substitutions that are way more complex than the music itself.
This is a good point. There are some striking (by modern standards) modal Renaissance music that seems to veer to a completely new key center just for the ending, but makes perfect sense if you just look at the counterpoint.
“All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians.”

- Thelonious Monk
Post Reply

Return to “Composition, Arrangement, & Theory”