TromboneChat

Quote from: Chris Fidler on Nov 06, 2011, 04:17AMThere is "Safe" and "Unsafe" YMMV


OVERSIMPLIFIED

Quote from: Euphanasia on Nov 06, 2011, 04:23AM
OVERSIMPLIFIED

Quite!!!...... And Quiet, no need to shout...... 

Quote from: Euphanasia on Nov 06, 2011, 03:11AMI have a question about this.  I understand that Australia is a distant destination for most shippers, but was there actual damage to the items or just the perception that there was a potential for damage?


Real damage and potential damage.
One trombone shipped in a case that has been known to cause damage due to poor design. Creased the bell.
One Marcus Bonna Case cut 1/3 of its length by the sender during packing
One trombone shipped in a case where the mpc was loose and flew around denting the bell

One bell with next to no bubble wrap on (fortunately the box didn't take a heavy hit - which I estimate from looking at the boxes about half of them do)
One pbone wrapped in one layer of bubble wrap and paper - testament to how tough the pbones are!
Etc


I now send all vendors (other than the two I really trust) a slide box from the slide doctor.
And clear instructions as to how to pack a bell.
I ask that no-one sends a complete instrument in a case.
And I insist on insurance.
It adds about $150 to the cost of shipping - but minimises the chance of sender error.

P

And in the latest couple of packages - a slide that I had paid to be shipped in a slide dr box...arrives with a dent just down from the mpc.
Really easy to see. Really easy to feel.
The vendor just chose not to mention it.
(Plus the leadpipe is completely jammed into the slide...not a major issue (assuming a pro can shift it) - but it would be nice if the vendor was upfront about this stuff.
I tell you....this has been a real lesson for me.
I presumed that musos wouldn't rip off musos.
But alas - it seems this isn't true.

I just received the S.E. Shires .547 tenor trombone that was being sold by forum member "Joel Felberg".

Barring one small issue that I trust Mr. Felberg will take care of promptly and in good faith, it arrived well-packed, in good time, and perfectly in the condition described.

I would do business with him again.

Quote from: peter1908 on Nov 06, 2011, 04:56PMOne Marcus Bonna Case cut 1/3 of its length by the sender during packing
A third of the case was chopped off!?

Quote from: Baron von Bone on Nov 09, 2011, 12:23PM
A third of the case was chopped off!?

I was confused by that too. I rather assume he means that there was a gash in the nylon/cloth/leather whatever it is covering.

the sellers take to  ups  /fedx   packing places
================
AS MENTIONED  NO  PACKING INSIDE  CASES --CUSTOMER MUST DO THAT
 DO  NOT ASSUME ANYONE  KNOWS HOW TO PACK --EVEN TROMBONE PLAYERS !!!!
---------

I have bought sight unseen before.  I picked up a Holton Super Collegiate Cornet a couple months ago for $55.  Came with a couple mpc's, one of which was an old 10.5 C Vincent Bach, Vernon, NY.  Seemed like a decent deal.

No

Quote from: John Beers Jr. on Nov 09, 2011, 12:46PMI was confused by that too. I rather assume he means that there was a gash in the nylon/cloth/leather whatever it is covering.

Not quite. It was completely my fault. I had to make sure the case was under.... 79" total inches I think, so I cut a piece of cardboard to fit the case, but I wasn't careful with the razor and cut the cases nylon cover on one of the dimensions. Honestly, I could've sworn I did the cutting with the case separate from the cardboard, but the damage has to have been caused by me since they didn't open it in customs.

We worked something out.  Hope the MB case is treating you well, Peter.  I'm really sorry about that.

Unless it's someone that I trust, pictures, with a time-stamp, or else it doesn't exist.  Then before I would do anything involving money or transfer of money, I would try and see if I could play the horn.  But if it's someone I don't know, pics or it's not real.

I bought my Bach 50 with Greenhoe valves without trying. It was all the way in Mexico and I've never saw a Greenhoe bass at that point. I love the sound of a Bach 50, our school had 3 and they sound great- just stuffy valves for me. So I figured Bach 50 + more open valves + really low price + brand new slide + sexy = dayum man just get the horn.

  So I got it. I use it to this day. It's a great horn but it plays COMPLETELY different than your ordinary Bach 50. It took a while to adjust and after getting a Kanstul copy of the Holton 169 it plays to my liking.


  If its a fancy brand like Rath, Edwards, Shires, Greenhoe you can expect it to always play well but it might not be to your liking. I always think its kinda weird when someone has some boutique horn and they say they hate the way it plays, most often those are the folks who haven't tried them before they played it. At the same time at the ITF at Finland, my professor tried for a Rath for the first time and fell in love with it. As soon as he went back to the states he ordered one but he always says it was never as good as the one he tried across the ocean.

without seeing? definitely no. Without playing? maybe.

Sure, I got three of my Earl Williams trombones that way.      

I just got a trombone from Noah (Slipmo) and it looks so much better in real life than in the photos. The work Brad Close did on the linkages and cleaning it up made it look almost like a new horn. I'd be more than happy to buy a horn from Noah again with no photo, as his descriptions and reviews are always honest and he spends time playing them to give you the best review possible.

Been there, done that....

waiting for a  42b in the  14,000s    -bought sight unseen !!!!!!!!!

Quote from: dj kennedy on Feb 23, 2012, 03:03AMwaiting for a  42b in the  14,000s    -bought sight unseen !!!!!!!!!

DJ, if you bought a horn that was a basket case sight unseen you could still find another one to play amongst your collection while you put the thing in for rehab.

If I were a kid looking to upgrade from his student horn it's quite a different matter.  And even worse if I lived 300 miles from any decent music store.  If I buy something sight unseen and it's bad I'm totally out of luck!

yeah  and i got  aaron  and  dan  waiting on the  rehabs  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
bass bones go to benn 
  im  almost spoilded  by these  guys
 so much i  dont do much testing until  after  teching
    ----
aaron has  been gigging  a  lot  w  funky butt brass  band 
-----
  yeah  not recommended   to buy   sight unseen unless you are prepared  for  it
------
 but    ok 2b  for sale  [know what they look  like ] --main thing is if it has  a 2b slide   instead of a  605   


Quote from: BGuttman on Feb 23, 2012, 03:43AMDJ, if you bought a horn that was a basket case sight unseen you could still find another one to play amongst your collection while you put the thing in for rehab.

If I were a kid looking to upgrade from his student horn it's quite a different matter.  And even worse if I lived 300 miles from any decent music store.  If I buy something sight unseen and it's bad I'm totally out of luck!

I think everyone summed up my thoughts.  I've done this numerous times because of my buying/selling addiction:

1) If from reputable seller that you've had experience with.
2) If not, it's not a horn that I'm buying to be my main horn.
3) It has to be a bargain (duh), and I need some kind of knowledge that it's the right model described!

I'd rather play it blindfolded than ever see it, though.  I've known some real uglies that shine, and some great looking horns that were gold-plated dogs.

-BrianP

If it is a newer model, specified as I want it, I think I would go for it. I did buy a used Bach 36 a few years ago. It arrived with some problems not described in the ebay add, so I got the seller to transfer some money back to cover the repair. He preferred that rather than have the trombone returned, and I got the horn I wanted.

Anders

Without seeing it, no.
Without playing it, yes.

I have recently bought a Vocabell and a The Dude off ebay, and had them shipped to the slide doctor for a tune up before shipping to me (in Europe).

Obviously, I had no control over the packaging before they reached the slide doctor. But the slide doctor packaged brilliantly as always, and both horns arrived in good condition.

I did . I bought a Besson Sovereign B/F with a Hagemann valve several years ago
off ebay and it was like new and played beautifully. The case had a scratch though.  I also
bought a King 3B/F off this forum and received more than I expected.  (the instrument
was better than advertised)
Two great experiences.

For me depends on the price. Then depends on if I'm in the market for a horn of that model or one similar.

I've purchased all my horns from Horn Guys without seeing or playing them. I've bought a couple of used ones, as well, from them that exceeded my expectations. The Guys are good at what they do and I trust them implicitly.

Most of the vendors will stand by what they put out there to sell...

If you're looking to try out different horns, a trip to the store would be in order. Doing that via mail order would be ludicrous.

I would buy a 36B if I had pictures... And if i could find one

One aspect of the problem is the quality of the photographs.  I'm much more skilled in photography than as a trombonist, but I have made a number of purchases from eBay and Craigslist (I donate horns to schools) and have made the following observations: (1) trombones are difficult to photograph well due to configuration. (2)flash on camera usually causes highlight reflections off shiny slides, leaving everything else too dark; (3) too few sellers pay attention to background color and distractions. It is best to use a neutral medium-light background, not dark and not white to avoid influencing in-camera meters, and the surroundings should be simple. Draping a medium color blanket from a stand may work. I just bought a silver Olds horn which was photographed against a red cloth, making it look like a rose copper brass; I realized this,of course and wanted the horn anyway. (4)focus, focus, focus, and use a tripod.  Do NOT snatch a quick one with your smart phone. (5)I think diffuse mid-day available light is better than flash, and if the latter, use a diffuser or bounce flash.(6) Take one or two images of the whole assembled horn, details of any damage or problems, and closeups of the bell engraving in vertical format, the slide crook, water key, and valves. A closeup of the serial number is nice. One or two images of the case is fine unless there is a specific issue. (6) If you know how to do this with your digital camera, match your white balance setting for the lighting; (7) and for eBay, don't bother with photos of slide lube, music lyre, lesson books, etc.  Nobody cares; put them in the text.

And while I'm discoursing on eBay matters, I must mention my distress at the general illiteracy and sloppiness in writing of too many vendors.

Never. I have learned instruments can be pretty deceiving. I saw a really nice Bach 42 with a thayer, and when I played it, it felt horrible. If you are buying an instrument where the company is far away from where you live and you don't want to travel far, then find someone who has that instrument. I wanted to buy an s.e. shires alto but I didn't want to travel to Massachusetts to try one out and buy it. So I found out one of my friends had one and so I tried it out, loved it, and then decided to purchase one. I suggest ALWAYS trying out an instrument before you buy one. That is just my advise. 

Absolutely.  I just always know that I might have to drop a few bucks to have someone reassemble the horn.  Even the maker of the parts doesn't matter a whole lot in my opinion, as long as the stuff is assembled right.  I just picked up a franken-slide .547/.562 made of like, yamaha and shilke parts with a Shires receiver.  All "B" grade parts.  Plays way better than my 50 slide for me.

My 42 I got after trying, but it was a straight horn.  Purchased a Shires rotor and had that mounted.  Did not try it before hand, very pleased with the results.

My 50 I also purchased blind (price was right!), I sank a few hundred into it to get it to have the right ergonomics and have the parts function right.  Still got a good deal on it. I'd rather buy used and take the money and have a tech do it right/customize it for me.  I'll probably put a pair of Thayers on it and still come out ahead.

Quote from: SandyMBarrows on Jul 30, 2012, 12:37PMI've purchased all my horns from Horn Guys without seeing or playing them. I've bought a couple of used ones, as well, from them that exceeded my expectations. The Guys are good at what they do and I trust them implicitly.

Ditto for Sandy!  I bought my most expensive instrument, a pristine Conn 62HI from Sandy; she did provide pictures and it truly exceeded my expectations.

When looking for a horn, I always look first for long-standing forum members as potential sellers (right DJ?), especially those that are active players or have a university position in a music department and also have a long history of valuable posts to the forum.  Reviewing forum posts is a good indicator for me of someone I can be comfortable with to do business with via the internet with low risk.  You can learn a lot about a person from their history of posts on this forum!!

Jim

I bought both of my bass trombones from pictures, one from Rayburn in Boston and one from Olathe Band Instruments in Kansas.  Both were in very good condition and I am happy with them.  I think you have to know whether the dealer is reliable; I spoke with both dealers at length before I made a decision to buy.

Quote from: ottisthetrombonist on Sep 10, 2011, 04:44AMI'm not sure if I would buy one without seeing it. I am a BIG fan of used, but because I am a kid, if the trombone is  to big for me I can't play it. Therefore, I have to see it, but also hold it.

Liz,

You play a 42: the 42 is about as big a trombone as there is.  The slide spacing is the same as the spacing on a big bass.  If you can hold the 42 you can hold about anything out there.  The bigger question is, "Do I want to hold this thing?"

Just bought a Yamaha YSL 548 GAL on eBay for 500. We'll  see how this works out.

BUY  IT  NOW  OR  BY IT  KNOT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
========
CRAIGSLIST BACH 12 
   
        call up
 whats it  say on bell  ???????????????
         
well  the mouthpiece  says   12 
---
 
============
GET THE PICTURE   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

=========================

I just did and it will be the last time. Bought a Blessing B78 on ebay. Paid on the high side of what they are worth used because it was advertised as "Mint" condition. Get the horn today and there are several dents in it plus lacquer wear and scratching. The part where the string attaches to the rotor is broke, the slide is noisy and slow but will probably be ok with a chem clean. Took it to a tech today and he thought he could whip it into shape for $100 including chem clean. Messaged the seller and haven't heard back yet (big surprise)Hopefully I will get a decent playable horn out of it when it's all over and done with. On top of that I put my Olds Super Star up for sale to finance the Blessing and right now I'm not so sure that the Olds isn't the better horn of the two.

I bought my bass, a Holton TR-181 from DJ without pics. It was because he has a good rep. So yes I would.

From DJ, yes! And Hornguys too..

if i could  do pics easily i would 
  maybe someday !!!!!!!!!!!!!
========
  and i  could do  a  demo  w pics of a trash  bone   and make  it look  good 
 i remember  looking at pics of an olds recording case
   OH BOY  -CASE LOOKS GREAT
 OTHER  SIDE  CRASHED  W HOLE IN IT  -------HA HA  !!!!!!!!!!

Yes.  I've been 100% so far and have made out fine even after replacing beat tuning crooks and pro slide jobs...

Don't spend more money that you can afford to lose on a used horn from an unknown source, however. 

Well, yes. I've bought a couple from DJ sight-unseen, but the one I'm really proud of was from just a couple of weeks ago ...

Phone rang, and a trumpet-playing friend said, "I'm in an antique store in <nearby town> and there's a trombone that says "Stradivarius Model 8" and "New York USA" on the bell. Is it worth buying? (He mentioned a rather low price.)

"Does it have any dents?"

"No."

"Just buy it, I said, "and if you don't want it, I'll buy it from you."

Long story short, I'm now the happy owner of a N.Y. Bach 8 bought sight-unseen. An hour's work on the slide, which wouldn't fall from its own weight, and it's now like brand-new -- no visible wear on the stockings, even. Sometimes the magic works.

8  8   8  8   !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





Quote from: jsmn4vu on Feb 05, 2013, 01:20PMWell, yes. I've bought a couple from DJ sight-unseen, but the one I'm really proud of was from just a couple of weeks ago ...

Phone rang, and a trumpet-playing friend said, "I'm in an antique store in <nearby town> and there's a trombone that says "Stradivarius Model 8" and "New York USA" on the bell. Is it worth buying? (He mentioned a rather low price.)

"Does it have any dents?"

"No."

"Just buy it, I said, "and if you don't want it, I'll buy it from you."

Long story short, I'm now the happy owner of a N.Y. Bach 8 bought sight-unseen. An hour's work on the slide, which wouldn't fall from its own weight, and it's now like brand-new -- no visible wear on the stockings, even. Sometimes the magic works.

As long as it's sold on TTF I'd trust the seller. Other than that absolutely not

Never!

See and above all try out is a MUST.

Quote from: JLivorsi on Feb 10, 2013, 10:28PMAs long as it's sold on TTF I'd trust the seller. Other than that absolutely not

Bought my Bach 50B3 from a TTF member and my Olds P-24 G from a reputable dealer,  without trying them out and am very happy with both.  That said, if you can't try out the horn, make sure you can return it if you are unsatisfied.

I've only played one trombone before I bought it.

Just got another, sight unseen- can't wait!

I enjoy buying instruments with nothing but a vague description and a couple out-of-focus cellphone cam shots to go by.  Most buyers get scared off and you can get some great deals.  Just yesterday a beautiful gold-plated 1920's Olds trombone showed up at my door in near-perfect condition, for a cost of next to nothing.  Of course often those out of focus shots are masking some serious flaws, so give them a good long stare!

Scott

Quote from: Offbass on Aug 02, 2012, 01:41PMOne aspect of the problem is the quality of the photographs.  I'm much more skilled in photography than as a trombonist, but I have made a number of purchases from eBay and Craigslist (I donate horns to schools) and have made the following observations: (1) trombones are difficult to photograph well due to configuration. (2)flash on camera usually causes highlight reflections off shiny slides, leaving everything else too dark; (3) too few sellers pay attention to background color and distractions. It is best to use a neutral medium-light background, not dark and not white to avoid influencing in-camera meters, and the surroundings should be simple. Draping a medium color blanket from a stand may work. I just bought a silver Olds horn which was photographed against a red cloth, making it look like a rose copper brass; I realized this,of course and wanted the horn anyway. (4)focus, focus, focus, and use a tripod.  Do NOT snatch a quick one with your smart phone. (5)I think diffuse mid-day available light is better than flash, and if the latter, use a diffuser or bounce flash.(6) Take one or two images of the whole assembled horn, details of any damage or problems, and closeups of the bell engraving in vertical format, the slide crook, water key, and valves. A closeup of the serial number is nice. One or two images of the case is fine unless there is a specific issue. (6) If you know how to do this with your digital camera, match your white balance setting for the lighting; (7) and for eBay, don't bother with photos of slide lube, music lyre, lesson books, etc.  Nobody cares; put them in the text.

And while I'm discoursing on eBay matters, I must mention my distress at the general illiteracy and sloppiness in writing of too many vendors.


  This is a Post Deserving Wider Recognition.  Might be good to break it out into a "how to photograph your horn for sale" thread. All great advice, with the one possible exception of posting the serial number of the horn. I know I have struggled to get a decent image, usually on first attempt the flash totally obliterates all detail or the most minor dents or crinkles end up looking like catastrophic damage. The lighting can be a bit tricky to pin down, but worth it for the end result. And I can't count the number of blurry, illegible photos I've seen while browsing eBay. Doesn't instill any confidence in the seller. My reaction is always, "NEXT!"

Quote from: stanzabone on Jun 28, 2013, 09:44AMI know I have struggled to get a decent image, usually on first attempt the flash totally obliterates all detail or the most minor dents or crinkles end up looking like catastrophic damage. The lighting can be a bit tricky to pin down, but worth it for the end result.1) Shoot your photos outdoors, either on an overcast day or at dusk or dawn. If you can see shadows, the lighting is too harsh.

2) Use a real camera (not a cell phone or tablet); preferably one with a macro setting.

3) Shoot the images square on, not at an angle. Sure, angle shots show more of the horn, but they're distorted.

4) Don't use a wide-angle lens, or the wide end of a zoom lens. If you want more in the picture, take a step or two back (remember rule 1; we're shooting these pictures outdoors, so there should be plenty of room).

5) Learn how to work with your camera's autofocus so you can get the horn sharp instead of the background.

6) As mentioned earlier, use a neutral background. Too light, too dark, too vivid, or too busy are all bad.

Jules, Enjoy your safe life!!!I am sorry with your attitude you will miss out on a lot of life's adventure....it's only money, but the incredible trombone finds are so worth it!!!!