TromboneChat

CarlVicVogel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:54 pm This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.
Thanks
CarlVicVogel

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:
1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )
2) De-bracing
3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves
4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.

Backbone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:02 pm

CarlVicVogel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:54 pm This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.
Thanks
CarlVicVogel

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:
1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )
2) De-bracing
3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves
4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.

Who ported your valves?

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:12 pm

Backbone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:02 pm

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:
1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )
2) De-bracing
3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves
4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.

Who ported your valves?

I did it myself.

Backbone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:23 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 1:12 pm

Who ported your valves?

I did it myself.

Are you a tech? If not how did you know how to do this?

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:38 am

Backbone wrote: ↑Tue Mar 01, 2022 8:23 pm

I did it myself.

Are you a tech? If not how did you know how to do this?

No, not a tech. I had an idea of what would be involved. I did it by hand and not a tool that could be dialed in to a specific i.d. Just a little at a time, de-burr, clean, then play test.

Backbone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:16 pm

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 6:38 am

Are you a tech? If not how did you know how to do this?

No, not a tech. I had an idea of what would be involved. I did it by hand and not a tool that could be dialed in to a specific i.d. Just a little at a time, de-burr, clean, then play test.

Bravo!

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 03, 2022 6:08 am

Backbone wrote: ↑Wed Mar 02, 2022 2:16 pm

No, not a tech. I had an idea of what would be involved. I did it by hand and not a tool that could be dialed in to a specific i.d. Just a little at a time, de-burr, clean, then play test.

Bravo!

Thanks!

What i'd really like to try next is a dual bore slide. .547/.562. I believe the 159's came with those. Just curious as to how it would suite me physically. Anyone try one on a Holton bass?

Backbone wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:14 pm What i'd really like to try next is a dual bore slide. .547/.562. I believe the 159's came with those. Just curious as to how it would suite me physically. Anyone try one on a Holton bass?

I have a Holton tr159 here right now. I really like it. It's a comfortable open blow and you can steer it in any direction you want. Nice tenor sound with a 5G. Good bass sound with a 1½G.

Backbone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:02 pm

CarlVicVogel wrote: ↑Sun Jan 16, 2022 4:54 pm This is a great thread! I own a 1990 TR-181 in perfect shape that I always thought was over-braced. Now, I know its true.
Thanks
CarlVicVogel

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:
1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )
2) De-bracing
3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves
4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.

Show us some pics! Which all braces did you remove, and which did you keep?

spencercarran wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:32 pm

Backbone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 28, 2022 2:02 pm

A couple years ago I got brave and began removing braces myself. My horn was not in perfect shape so I was not worried about ruining a fine specimen. The result? The horn became more resonant and the response became more equal between open horn, F and Gb sides. But the D side - both triggers - still remained stuffy. A couple days ago, I removed just one more brace that had been on my mind for quite some time. The result? Finally major improvement on the D side. Now the response and sound is much more equal to the open horn. This has made this horn much easier for me to play. Low C's are popping out not without having to force it. Lower volume stuff is much easier in the low range. Pedals improved as well!.

So my list of mods to a TR-181, without adding/changing parts from another horn, would be:
1) Pulled lead pipe ( yes an added part, but this is a standard mod for just about any horn )
2) De-bracing
3) If brave enough, slight porting of valves
4) Screw-bell

Everyone of those mods have made a positive difference.

Show us some pics! Which all braces did you remove, and which did you keep?

Lets see if this works

Backbone wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 8:16 pm

spencercarran wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 1:32 pm

Show us some pics! Which all braces did you remove, and which did you keep?

Lets see if this works

Looks beautiful! I'm looking into picking up a 181 soon (I learned on a 181 and finally have some money to buy a horn that isn't a Chinese knock off), I might have to take a stab at debracing in a similar manner!

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:57 pm

Backbone wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:14 pm What i'd really like to try next is a dual bore slide. .547/.562. I believe the 159's came with those. Just curious as to how it would suite me physically. Anyone try one on a Holton bass?

I have a Holton tr159 here right now. I really like it. It's a comfortable open blow and you can steer it in any direction you want. Nice tenor sound with a 5G. Good bass sound with a 1½G.

My 159 is in the shop now getting a plug in valve made for another horn adapted to it. I've found the same with the tenor/bass duality.

The original valve on the 159 is tiny, but it seems to work well, even below the staff. The plugin valve has a (much bigger) II valve, so we'll see how/if that works, and if I'll need to replace the original valve.

There was a Shires valve that was particularly small, if I remember. The idea appears to work even if it looks like it shouldn't.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:30 am

SwissTbone wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 12:57 pm

I have a Holton tr159 here right now. I really like it. It's a comfortable open blow and you can steer it in any direction you want. Nice tenor sound with a 5G. Good bass sound with a 1½G.

My 159 is in the shop now getting a plug in valve made for another horn adapted to it. I've found the same with the tenor/bass duality.

The original valve on the 159 is tiny, but it seems to work well, even below the staff. The plugin valve has a (much bigger) II valve, so we'll see how/if that works, and if I'll need to replace the original valve.

There was a Shires valve that was particularly small, if I remember. The idea appears to work even if it looks like it shouldn't.

I am curious about the valve size. My 181 has tiny rotors as well. That is what has me wondering if the 159 dual bore slide would work better for me than a straight .562 bass slide that it comes with.

Backbone wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 10:34 am

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Wed Jun 21, 2023 8:30 am

My 159 is in the shop now getting a plug in valve made for another horn adapted to it. I've found the same with the tenor/bass duality.

The original valve on the 159 is tiny, but it seems to work well, even below the staff. The plugin valve has a (much bigger) II valve, so we'll see how/if that works, and if I'll need to replace the original valve.

There was a Shires valve that was particularly small, if I remember. The idea appears to work even if it looks like it shouldn't.

I am curious about the valve size. My 181 has tiny rotors as well. That is what has me wondering if the 159 dual bore slide would work better for me than a straight .562 bass slide that it comes with.

Tiny valves. Might look tiny. Question. Do you know what the internal dimension of the valve tubing is?? If it's like the older Holton(169, 185) it's .585. That is smaller than a Bach, Conn, and virtually every other bass trombone. With the 181 the main issue with that instrument playing stuffy is the bracing. Read what others have done here with their 181s. Sometimes the valve ports can be opened up slightly and that makes a difference. I doubt a dual bore slide will help but who knows.

Great points, WGWTR180. I have de-braced the valve section and opened up the rotors with good results. Its just a curiosity thing.

I was originally going up in mpc size. Started with a 1 1/2G. Got to a Yeo replica and came to my senses. Now I am on a Rath B2. Not sure but I think that is around a 1 1/2 or 2G size. Best move I've made so far.

Now just wondering what effects the 547/559 or 547/562 slide would have on my playing. Does it suit me better? I don't know - hence the curiosity factor. Maybe the valves do not factor in. Maybe they do. I don't know.

Sure wish I could try one out but that is not always an easy endeavor. A good ol' play test would solve the curiosity factor for sure.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:31 am Tiny valves. Might look tiny. Question. Do you know what the internal dimension of the valve tubing is?? If it's like the older Holton(169, 185) it's .585. That is smaller than a Bach, Conn, and virtually every other bass trombone. With the 181 the main issue with that instrument playing stuffy is the bracing. Read what others have done here with their 181s. Sometimes the valve ports can be opened up slightly and that makes a difference. I doubt a dual bore slide will help but who knows.

I don't have the horn here at home right now, but I'll measure it when I get it back. The Shires valve I was thinking of is the Dual Bore valve. It's smaller than the rest of the valves, and when I was setting up a Shires for myself, it was the one I selected as the best suiting my playing.

There's also the thread about basses with different valves, and I'll probably post to that when I get mine back. The plug in valve is a big Instrument Innovations valve. I'll be interested to see if it plays awkwardly in any way, with such asymmetrical valves, although they'd be dependent. I'd rather not mess with the original valve if there isn't any need to, but at the same time, I'm not sure putting a second small valve like that on the plug in would be a great idea. No real way to know until you try.

The bell throat on the 159 is slightly larger than an 88h, but much smaller than the Wessex Super Tenor I had. The Wessex also had relatively large valve. Still, the 159 plays better in the bass range than the Wessex. The Wessex slide was unreasonably short, and the 159 seems to have a relatively long slide. That helps get an almost-in-tune low C.

Interestingly, the Shires dual bore rotor is actually larger on the exit port than their standard. I was told when I was investigating shortening mine to G, that the tubing is .562 all the way to the re-entrance of the rotor, which is where the difference began. I didn’t think to ask, I wonder if there’s a taper kind of like the progressive bore Hagmann or something, otherwise I don’t know how the casing can be that much smaller.

On these Holtons, is the tubing and valve bore a standard size or are they perhaps slightly smaller?

Matt K wrote: ↑Fri Jun 23, 2023 7:42 pm Interestingly, the Shires dual bore rotor is actually larger on the exit port than their standard. I was told when I was investigating shortening mine to G, that the tubing is .562 all the way to the re-entrance of the rotor, which is where the difference began. I didn’t think to ask, I wonder if there’s a taper kind of like the progressive bore Hagmann or something, otherwise I don’t know how the casing can be that much smaller.

On these Holtons, is the tubing and valve bore a standard size or are they perhaps slightly smaller?

On the basses slightly smaller than almost every maker.

No pictures yet, but I got some parts from a friend
that have allowed me to build up a Holton TR185. Still needs cleaning up, but I am impressed with this beast. Fairly heavy bell that gives a dense, dark sound. I have been able to assemble two slides that give very different results. The first is a standard Holton slide that gives the instrument a typical Holton feel and sound. The second is a little bit special... slot in pipe, brass outer slides with nickel silver Holton bottom bow (I didn't know they made them). This pushes it in a Conn or Bach like direction. Final finishing still to do, but it seems really really nice.

blast wrote: ↑Fri Jul 07, 2023 4:04 pm No pictures yet, but I got some parts from a friend
that have allowed me to build up a Holton TR185. Still needs cleaning up, but I am impressed with this beast. Fairly heavy bell that gives a dense, dark sound. I have been able to assemble two slides that give very different results. The first is a standard Holton slide that gives the instrument a typical Holton feel and sound. The second is a little bit special... slot in pipe, brass outer slides with nickel silver Holton bottom bow (I didn't know they made them). This pushes it in a Conn or Bach like direction. Final finishing still to do, but it seems really really nice.

Okay resurrecting this thread. Should've posted this a year ago but I've been busy. Originally a single valve 185. I decided to go the inline route for this project. A big thanks to Matthew Walker at M&W for agreeing to take this on.

Absolutely stunning Bill!

Fridge

wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.
So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?

RichC wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:02 am wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.
So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?

I wasn't going to say anything....

Gorgeous, Bill!

I somehow have in my possession not one but *two* Minick Holtons - a 180 and a 185, both converted to independent. I'll post pics soon!

RichC wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:02 am wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.
So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?

The hose clamp. Yes I knew someone would ask. The top of the slide has a major split so I put this clamp on with very little tension. It's to keep the split from growing until I can get to my tech for a proper fix.

blast wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:52 am

RichC wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 11:02 am wow...looks great, Bill. Bet it sounds wonderful.
So, does that hose clamp secures the leadpipe somehow?

I wasn't going to say anything....

HA! Please read above. However I should spread a rumor that it's a tone enhancer of some kind to stir things up.

ngrinder wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:28 pm Gorgeous, Bill!

I somehow have in my possession not one but *two* Minick Holtons - a 180 and a 185, both converted to independent. I'll post pics soon!

Thanks! Too bad I don't know where you live. But I do know where you work.

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 2:43 pm

ngrinder wrote: ↑Mon Apr 08, 2024 12:28 pm Gorgeous, Bill!

I somehow have in my possession not one but *two* Minick Holtons - a 180 and a 185, both converted to independent. I'll post pics soon!

Thanks! Too bad I don't know where you live. But I do know where you work.

When you’re down there, let me know!

Hopefully these pics post on the thread, But here’s a link to the whole album:

https://imgur.com/gallery/pGbhyTJ

I was really lucky to find these two great instruments within the past few months - a 180 *and* a 185, both modified to be independent by Larry Minick.

They both play wonderfully, but are quite different. The 185 has very well defined slots, a heavier bell, but tons of color and character. The 180 is much lighter and more nimble, even with the larger 10in bell, and is extremely flexible color-wise. Both came with removable Minick pipes (the 180 came with two), and I’ve been having a great time experimenting with the everything. I’m spoiled to have three great Holtons - these two, and my E185, which I keep at my show and is my favorite of the three. Eventually I will probably let the 180 go, as I do prefer the smaller 9.5 inch bell.