TromboneChat

So we got to see Joe teach and play a bit yesterday. It was both enlightening and reaffirming for the stuff I know about and believe in, but it was a bit frustrating at the same time.

What he had to say about being able to sing and conduct your part to be able to play true to the music, and that being a musician starts with your head and not your instrument is spot on, especially for the real message behind what he was saying.

I personally don't think that conducting is 100% necessary to being able to play musically  (I'm a terrible stick waver), but if I interpret what he is saying to mean that the tempo is alive and originates from YOU when you practice, then I agree 100%. The tempo choice must sound deliberate, hence the use of deliberate conducting, and it also must be alive. Someone asked about using a metronome to improve tempo and he simply said "no".

As for singing, it's the best way to get your internal musical voice to manifest. If you can sing what you want your part to be like, then you can likely imagine what that might sound like on your instrument and then achieve that.

This is some of the most important stuff that any musician can think about, and it seems like an obligatory part to a masterclass -- but it's something that can't be reinforced enough. I thought it was a great way to break the ice and start the masterclass.

Unfortunately we didn't get too much further down the rabbit hole in the class. Much of Joe's time was spent correcting significant intonation issues and wrong notes on the A major scale. I was able to glean some confirmation in my own ideas about slide technique, and learned a neat trick using a coin to force the student to keep constant contact with the slide and also to keep their fingers off the bell.

Intonation is a very interesting topic to me, and this is what Joe talked about the most. But rather than learning about choosing how to shape a melodic line with pitch (ie Pythagorean tuning), or how to sit in a chord (Just Intonation), he mostly talked about not using compressed positions (ie, make sure you go out far enough for fourth and fifth positions) and to avoid using the bell as a reference point. I had a chance to ask him, since he was talking about decompressing slide positions and using a longer slide, what his thoughts were on tuning the instrument in the first place, if he tunes sharp to move Bb away from a closed first position, etc. Unfortunately he sort of said "is that the most interesting question here? I tune Bb with a closed slide and teach my students to do the same, since all the partials above it will tend sharp anyways". I felt kind of stupid after that, though I thought it had been a good question.

In the end, hearing Joe play Mahler 3 and the Larsson concerto snippets was really great, and getting a sense for where he thinks a section piano dynamic should be (much softer than I expected), and the wide range of dynamics he used in the section was also money in the bank. Well worth the $0 price of admission. Music students definitely need to get serious, based on what I'm seeing from not only yesterday but other recorded masterclasses. Hopefully teachers are not afraid to be up front with students who are "all in". Competition is fierce, and a degree is just a piece of paper that won't win you any auditions. Joe was pretty up front in his critiques, and it seemed like some were not used to such frank critiques. Good luck students! Make music!

People might be interested to know that it looked like Joe was on a Greg Black mouthpiece and the stock Edwards T-396A (fixed bell and leadpipe).

He's also playing the Rouse concerto in Ft. Collins tmr night. I'll definitely be there!

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 03, 2017, 07:11AMWhat he had to say about being able to sing and conduct your part to be able to play true to the music, and that being a musician starts with your head and not your instrument is spot on, especially for the real message behind what he was saying.

I personally don't think that conducting is 100% necessary to being able to play musically  (I'm a terrible stick waver), but if I interpret what he is saying to mean that the tempo is alive and originates from YOU when you practice, then I agree 100%. The tempo choice must sound deliberate, hence the use of deliberate conducting, and it also must be alive.
My former teacher also used me to make him conduct him. I believe that this is more about having a clear, concise idea about what exactly you wanna do and be able to communicated clearly in a way that leaves no place for doubts, than stick-wavering and conducting techniques.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 03, 2017, 07:11AMI had a chance to ask him, since he was talking about decompressing slide positions and using a longer slide, what his thoughts were on tuning the instrument in the first place, if he tunes sharp to move Bb away from a closed first position, etc. Unfortunately he sort of said "is that the most interesting question here? I tune Bb with a closed slide and teach my students to do the same, since all the partials above it will tend sharp anyways".
I must have got a lemon of a horn then, because D and Ab are nowhere near sharp.  I wonder if Bach will honor a warranty claim?  I bought that horn in 1971, I think. 

FWIW, I push the main tuning slide in all the way and leave it there.  But I learned from the repair tech who gave a presentation at JMU last month that you should move your slides every day, so I started doing that.  He said lube won't prevent it from eventually sticking if you never pull slides, but if you move them frequently even a dry tuning slide will be okay. 

Indeed, I believe that dry clean slides are less prone to sticking if left unused for long time.

Not a problem I have. My intonation varies so much that I'm always pushing or pulling that suckah. To be more clear, it varies depending upon which group I'm in vs playing at home where I can pretty much set it and forget it.

Oops. Here come the "Digression Cops".

...Geezer

I was actually surprised he tuned that way.

Quote from: timothy42b on Feb 03, 2017, 08:43AM...  But I learned from the repair tech who gave a presentation at JMU last month that you should ... 

At least to continue the digression theme - how about the audible gasp when the repairman bent the slide in half?  'Trombone Autopsy' - an interesting presentation at JMU Trombone Day.

To get back to Mr. Alessi's presentation - any discussion of articulation for fast passages? I heard him recommend only single tonguing at a Masterclass last year.  Another interesting recommendation was to avoid B-flat in 5th position ('sounds like a French Horn').

Quote from: TriJim on Feb 03, 2017, 09:34AMAt least to continue the digression theme - how about the audible gasp when the repairman bent the slide in half?  'Trombone Autopsy' - an interesting presentation at JMU Trombone Day.

To get back to Mr. Alessi's presentation - any discussion of articulation for fast passages? I heard him recommend only single tonguing at a Masterclass last year.  Another interesting recommendation was to avoid B-flat in 5th position ('sounds like a French Horn').

No he was having one student play a lot out in 5th (Gb to Bb).

He did not talk about fast articulation. One student played the Larsson concerto which needed double tonguing, and when Joe played it he seemed to be double tonguing, but the student was single tonguing it. It was not fast enough to maintain tempo.

You sure he wasn't playing his Greigo? That seems like a pretty huge switch back if so.

Quote from: Burgerbob on Feb 03, 2017, 10:40AMYou sure he wasn't playing his Greigo? That seems like a pretty huge switch back if so.

I play a Griego piece. Unless it was a return to a New York blank, it didn't appear to be a Griego-Alessi.

I took a look from about three feet away.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 03, 2017, 10:42AMI play a Griego piece. Unless it was a return to a New York blank, it didn't appear to be a Griego-Alessi.

I took a look from about three feet away.

I'm not doubting your visual acuity! That just seems pretty big.

I really like his point about decompressing slide positions. I've noticed that in players here and didn't know how to articulate the problem.

Yeah, it prompted my question about where he puts first position. I was really surprised by his answer about tuning closed. Won't change my mind.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 03, 2017, 07:11AM


 Unfortunately he sort of said "is that the most interesting question here? I tune Bb with a closed slide and teach my students to do the same, since all the partials above it will tend sharp anyways". I felt kind of stupid after that, though I thought it had been a good question.



While Mr Alessi may be a heck of a player, you're not the first person i've heard state that they were made to feel stupid during his classes or lessons, or were surprised in the same manner at a response. Which is unfortunate.   

Quote from: TriJim on Feb 03, 2017, 09:34AMAt least to continue the digression theme - how about the audible gasp when the repairman bent the slide in half?  'Trombone Autopsy' - an interesting presentation at JMU Trombone Day.

\

Yeah, when he slammed the bell down on the floor to show buckling failure.........that was just WRONG!

I wish every beginning trombone student could see that Trombone Autopsy.  Most wasn't new, but I had to learn it the hard way over a period of years.  Seeing that valve disassembled in seconds doing it the right way was enlightening too. 

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 03, 2017, 07:11AMUnfortunately we didn't get too much further down the rabbit hole in the class. Much of Joe's time was spent correcting significant intonation issues and wrong notes on the A major scale. I was able to glean some confirmation in my own ideas about slide technique, and learned a neat trick using a coin to force the student to keep constant contact with the slide and also to keep their fingers off the bell.


I think I know the trick of which you speak.  I saw Ralph Sauer use this once in a master class, and I used it myself just this morning with a student.  The student's tendency was to let his fingers slip up on the slide crossbar instead of playing closer to his fingertips.  He has very long fingers and so this often caused him to hit his fingers against the bell in fast passages.  I had him hold a quarter while playing and then told him he could keep the quarter as long as he kept it for practice and didn't spend it! 

--Andy in OKC

Quote from: timothy42b on Feb 03, 2017, 08:43AMI must have got a lemon of a horn then, because D and Ab are nowhere near sharp.  I wonder if Bach will honor a warranty claim?  I bought that horn in 1971, I think. 

Most of the new custom horns - Edwards, Shires and Rath have "D's" that are in tune or even a bit sharp in 1st position. I think the newer Yamahas are that way as well - not sure about newer Conns and Bachs. The older Bachs and Conns definitely have flat 1st position "D's" most of the time. "A flat" isn't useable in first on most instruments, unless it really goes by fast, although on my Edwards, I might be able to use it if if it were the 7th of a "B flat" dominant chord. I still would avoid it.

Even with very few flat notes to worry about in 1st position, I also like to tune my horn so that my 1st position is out just a bit. This gives me the ability to tune to others around me who might be a little sharp on a note, and is probably a bit of habit after playing many years on a Conn with springs.

Jim Scott

Quote from: Rockymountaintrombone on Feb 03, 2017, 03:19PM
Even with very few flat notes to worry about in 1st position, I also like to tune my horn so that my 1st position is out just a bit. This gives me the ability to tune to others around me who might be a little sharp on a note, and is probably a bit of habit after playing many years on a Conn with springs.

Jim Scott

 

Just to clarify, I only audited the class. I reread my post and realized I hadn't said that.

Well,  asking where he tunes Bb is kind of a lame question. You could have asked what visual aids he used to develop his sound or what sort of things he feels require the most maintenance, or the role of technology in daily practice. But no,  you chose to try to support your own view on a somewhat controversial topic.

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Feb 03, 2017, 03:50PMJust to clarify, I only audited the class. I reread my post and realized I hadn't said that.

So I guess you're not at Ft. Bragg anymore? Or Korea?

Whatever happened to "there are no stupid questions"?

Quote from: MikeBMiller on Feb 03, 2017, 06:22PMSo I guess you're not at Ft. Bragg anymore? Or Korea?

Nope. Colorado now.

Quote from: hyperbolica on Feb 03, 2017, 06:02PMWell,  asking where he tunes Bb is kind of a lame question. You could have asked what visual aids he used to develop his sound or what sort of things he feels require the most maintenance, or the role of technology in daily practice. But no,  you chose to try to support your own view on a somewhat controversial topic.


Seems like a valid question to me. Not being there we don't know what other questions where asked, and how he tunes his horn is controversial?

He did also talk about recording too. He recommended recording every practice session. The quality of the recording equipment, he said, mattered only to the point that you could analyze pitch and rhythm.

Any zoom recorder is just fine for personal practice tracking.

Quote from: Pre59 on Feb 04, 2017, 03:20AMSeems like a valid question to me. Not being there we don't know what other questions where asked, and how he tunes his horn is controversial?

Harrison seems to have really been looking for some justification for just pushing the tuning slide all the way in and tuning as you go. There are others who do this, but you're guaranteed to start off out of tune since you have to hear the problem to adjust for it, and most folks use muscle memory (and a lot of practice) to get the slide in the right place, rather than trial and error. It just seems like a silly thing to do to a guy at the top of his profession. It seems Joe thought so too.

Quote from: hyperbolica on Feb 04, 2017, 07:13AMHarrison seems to have really been looking for some justification for just pushing the tuning slide all the way in and tuning as you go. There are others who do this, but you're guaranteed to start off out of tune since you have to hear the problem to adjust for it, and most folks use muscle memory (and a lot of practice) to get the slide in the right place, rather than trial and error. It just seems like a silly thing to do to a guy at the top of his profession. It seems Joe thought so too.

Well, I guess if you assume the intent of the question was without context and really just to find out where he tuned his Bb was, it would be silly.

However, as he was talking about decompressing positions and not using guideposts, such as the bell, I asked in that context. Moving the tuning slide all the way in, surprise surprise, extends all of the positions.

The students were playing 88Hs, which actually do not play as well tuned to the bumpers (especially since all of them were grabbing the bell), AND all were struggling with intonation.

Anyways, that was only a tiny part of the entire class and we shouldn't get hung up on it.

Quote from: hyperbolica on Feb 04, 2017, 07:13AMHarrison seems to have really been looking for some justification for just pushing the tuning slide all the way in and tuning as you go.

I hereby give him permission.

If you move your tuning slide during tuneup, you've just moved where all the other positions are too.  So you'll be in tune on one note, and have to adjust on the fly for all the others.  Might as well just adjust for that one note. 

Wow. The Ft. Collins symphony is outstanding.

Great job on the Rouse concerto. Alessi owned it.

Hi Harrison,

Thanks for telling us about Joe Alessi's Masterclass .It would be a shame if he felt some questions were beneath him.

Hi Harrison,

Thanks for telling us about Joe Alessi's Masterclass .It would be a shame if he felt some questions were beneath him.