TromboneChat

I hardly think this question matters. All are considered top of the line, and most players will make their decision more on playing qualities than by comparing construction. This is different than a school band where instruments need to be robust and competitive in price.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:45 pm It can be eliminated either by better cleaning of the flux residues after soldering (maybe using ultrasound or solvents) or possibly converting to a less active flux. This has to happen before the lacquer is applied, though.

Yeah, I figured there could be some extra step to take that would help clean up the flux residue. I know it probably has zero effect on the sound, but the little oxidized patches are just so ugly... I had a 2rvet7 bell that I loved that had zero acid bleed on the rim because it had an unsoldered rim, but it had a patch up by the tuning slide joint where flux had leached out and made an ugly spot. Just seems like you can’t win! I’ve had my current bell for almost a year and played on it fairly extensively so Im hoping by now if there was any flux trapped in the rim it would have worked out by now.

None of that stuff matters.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:14 pm None of that stuff matters.

That's one way to look at it, but...

They do lacquer it to make it look good, right? So, presumably there is some value in that. Would anyone buy a brand new Shires with acid flux stains? likely not. So it is a real real disappointment when your kilo-dollar custom looks like a rust bucket after 3 years. Fixing this from their end would cost next to nothing (after all, the cheapest $700 Jupiters and Yamahas JUST .. DON'T .. DO .. THIS .. EVER).

So it does piss me off a bit when my $7000 Shires kit looks like it has leprosy.

My point is ... there is not excuse except complacency.

I'll never buy another Shires, just because, well, they don't seem to care much about anything except sales. Maybe I don't know one end of the trombone from the other after 50 years of this, but for my money my XO brass 1236 actually plays better. Plus it has the added bonus of less cost and no leprosy.

My Shires has sit in it's case for more than 2 years now. Can't seem to sell it even at less than 1/2 what it cost new. Oh, and not only does it have leprosy of the bell, but the lacquer around the areas where my hands touch it disappeared in what seems like weeks. So it has leprosy there too. And pretty bad to boot. Probably why no one will buy the ugly POS.

My oldest XO horn, my 1240 bass, which is like 4 or 5 years old now does not have a mark on it, despite many dozen a mid-summer night gig sweating all over it, not to mention the daily practice.

So, none of that stuff matters, except it really does in the end because it just demonstrates the complete complacency of the company making them.

This is an opinion piece from a Shires with leprosy owner. YMMD.

Update:

The best built, most beautiful trombone I ever held in my hands and played was from M&W at ATW. It was meticulous. And, take your pick. I tried their alto and every tenor setup they had on a stand. Each would have been the most beautiful, solid feeling, ergonomically awesome, well-built trombone I've ever seen or played.

I couldn't get any of them to speak for me that day. They felt stuffy and not fun to play. The ATW room is a terrible place to playtest trombones, so it could of just been the spot in the room where we were. For comparison, during my playtest of the Edwards Oft model there were strangers coming up to me going "oh my God!" and "you're not thinking of buying that are you? I might". I went "Oh my God!" after playing it too.

I don't buy trombones to look at them. I don't really buy trombones. Otherwise I'd own that edwards oft model. I'll concede that if I was in the market for a used bone, I'd avoid one with bad acid bleed. That's got to do with if the bell is soldered or not, right? Not an excuse, because there are ways to prevent it, but unsoldered bells are less likely to get this, right?

Did S E Shires Ltd, a wholly-owned subsidiary of Eastman Corp., lose anything when Steve Shires left the building?

BillO wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:10 pm They do lacquer it to make it look good, right? So, presumably there is some value in that. Would anyone buy a brand new Shires with acid flux stains? likely not. So it is a real real disappointment when your kilo-dollar custom looks like a rust bucket after 3 years. Fixing this from their end would cost next to nothing (after all, the cheapest $700 Jupiters and Yamahas JUST .. DON'T .. DO .. THIS .. EVER).

I actually bought both of my Shires horns with acid flux stains brand new from a store. They discounted the bells a little bit, but mainly they threw in some valve oil, slide lube, a free old Bach case to store the other bells I had, and some lead pipes I wanted.

I really don't care how my horns look and actually prefer the look of un-lacquered bronze the most (too bad my bronze bell isn't from Shires and un-lacquered bells seem to lack some projections for the way I play). I also have to say that the horns are 13 and 15 years old now. The tenor has acid bleed on the bell, and the places where I touch lost lacquer in just a few months, even though it was wiped down daily. It also has really bad pitting on the neck pipe.

The Bass has horrible acid bleed all the way around the entire bell rim, and has a really strange spotting of the acid bleed in 2-3 inch parts of the bell all over, but they are really tiny spots. The acid bleed in the rim got to it's worst stage in about 2 years. The spotting parts just happened in the last year or so. I also had the slide worked on by a very good tech twice to get the alignment perfect. The bass valve section also had two knuckles that were over buffed when the horn was polished before lacquering and they both blew our and ruptured on plane flights. I had the knuckles patched, and the horn sound great. As a tech once said though she isn't going to win any beauty pageants!

Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:16 am Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

1000 million times better than a 3B. The MD+ is my favorite small bore. I don’t play any horn smaller than .547 enough to justify one but if i did i would buy one in a heart beat.

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:16 am Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

I tried one. It was good. Not really worth swapping my 3B out for.

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:16 am Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

Solid meh. Good horn but the 3B is 90 percent of one (or higher, if you find a banger) for like... 1/5th the cost.

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:16 am Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

I've played a couple and I didn't like them. Since we're talking about 3Bs, I'd pick a 3B over one even at the same price. MY 3Bs? No contest.

Point being...you'll get lots of different opinions here. Gotta find a way to play one yourself and see if you like it.

Elow wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:38 am

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:16 am Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

1000 million times better than a 3B. The MD+ is my favorite small bore. I don’t play any horn smaller than .547 enough to justify one but if i did i would buy one in a heart beat.

Many great players will disagree with you on this.

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:16 am Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

I think the Michael Davis is a really, really good trombone.
I can also recommend the Shires tbsbsc, which I have myself. I have so much fun playing that one.

By the way, MW was mentioned above in the thread for their build quality and beauty. For me they play equally well. Great instruments.

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aboumaia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:28 pm Does anyone know if the Shires Michael Davis (or Michael Davis+) have a thicker lacquer than the other Shires (TBSBSC for example) ? Or does it have a thin lacquer like the others ?

I assume it's pretty thin. The ones I've seen have not been that old, and the lacquer wears quickly.

Nobbi wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 12:16 am Acid bleed or not .... I truly think about a Shires Michael Davis. Is it worth it? Did anyone ever pass or even play one?

I can’t comment on the MD but I play the MD+ and came from 3Bs, and it’s just like the best 3B on steroids, seriously great at everything. Yes you can find a great 3B out there, but it could take a bit of searching. Much cheaper though! Also keep in mind although you can compare the two, its not a 3B and never will be. Maybe you would prefer a 3B?

Also keep in mind that for a mainly classical large bore or bass bone player it might not be worth it to them to spend extra on a Shires small bore, but for me, more of a lead/commercial player, even an extra 10% of refinement and eveness is a no-brainer.

You have to play one for yourself though. If I was looking for a cheaper option and without having to search for the perfect 3B, I’d go for the XO 1634 Fedchock horn.

aboumaia wrote: ↑Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:28 pm Does anyone know if the Shires Michael Davis (or Michael Davis+) have a thicker lacquer than the other Shires (TBSBSC for example) ? Or does it have a thin lacquer like the others ?

Yep, thin lacquer, mine has quite a bit of wear at the contact points and across the horn.

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