TromboneChat

I'm still in a wannabee trombonists crowd and the only thing I'm missing is a... horn.
I can get something off eBay since in our location there is almost nothing to choose from except for new Yamaha and our local prices even for a basic model 354 are just plain mad. Used Yamahas pop up extremely rarely.

I'm thinking Olds Ambassador but...
I looked for reviews and found a thread on our fellow trumpeter's forum that I frequent as an adult amateur trumpet player. The thread's overall conclusion is 'Olds Ambassador trombone is NO good'.
Here:
https://www.trumpetherald.com/forum/vie ... hp?t=36527

I perfectly understand that it's a heavy student horn. I don't expect it to be in the King Liberty league.

However, judging by my experience with Olds and Reynolds student level trumpets I'd say that I'll always prefer a used Olds or Reynolds to any similarly prices new Chinese junk. I don't know why many people don't understand that.

So what about the subject anyway?

Even assuming only Olds, you can do better. Olds Special, Recording, Studio will be a little bit more expensive, but better players.

You can also find lots of Yamaha 354s on ebay fairly cheap. Lots of options for cheap horns on eBay. You might not kiss a prince your first date, if you know what I mean.

Olds valve instruments were much better than the slide instruments. Also, the last Olds Ambassador came from Fullerton in the early 1970s; almost 50 years ago.

I played an Ambassador with F for a number of years. It's OK, but not stellar. You could probably find a newer instrument that will work better. Perhaps a King 606 (or its antecedent, the 605), a Conn Director (several models). Yamaha 354's are really good (and not Chinese -- they are Japanese). You could also look at a Besson Oxford, Holton Collegiate, Martin indiana, Weril, or Jupiter (which is actually made in Taiwan).

That said, some Chinese instruments are a reasonable starting point. Something from Wessex Tubas, JP-Rath (JP stands for John Packer, an English dealer), and Mack Brass are usually much better than the average Ebay special.

I was thinking Holton 602 trombone as well.
Do you suggest that Holton 602 would be a better choice compared to Olds Ambassador for some reasons?

One knock on the Olds is that it doesn't have a "contemporary sound". Plus the receiver takes a shank that's not QUITE a standard shank of either small or large size today. I think I come close to a contemporary sound with my Olds standard (a couple of pay grades above the Ambassador, but I'm not sure that makes any difference in this context) with my Kelly mouthpiece with its sanded down shank (to fit the receiver correctly). But if you really want to play the horn in a number of contexts, the other suggestions here would be better for you, I think.

Also, I do feel my Olds is slide heavy compared to more "modern" horns. You can get used to it, but it's different.

As far as I know new crop of Yamaha YSL 354 comes from China, not Japan. They say older Japanese crop were better but I understand that Yamaha doesn't make crap.

I'm not after any particular kind of sound: I need a horn for amateur Jazz playing. Play a head, improvise.
I know with vintage US-made horns of basically any level you can't go totally wrong. That's why I'm not considering Chinese junk with pretentious brand names.

I have two YSL 354 and can confirm these are surprisingly good for the money (haven't played a King 606).

Make sure the slide is okay, since in the very early years of their production Yamaha seems to have had some problems with chrome plating so that today some inner slides from that period show pitting of the surface which makes them +- unusable.

Good luck and have fun!

Thanks for the tips on YSL 354.
Meanwhile I'm still collecting opinions on the Olds Ambassador. Now you know my specific sound preferences which are actually none. No requirements except for a solid construction (which it is as far as I know) and basic decent sound. It shouldn't be stuffy or muffled. Some blowing resistance is preferred.
Please talk me out if you can.

I was curious and purchased an Ambassador on eBay for $29. Just buy one and try it.

Well, I currently see a few at $100 and they are complete junk.
Please note that when you view eBay offers as a US buyer you see much more because many US sellers who specify 'US only' for shipping restrict their listings for local viewers only.
Besides, shipping to my location from the US starts at around $120...

I've had two Ambassadors, both were stuffy. On the old forum people did talk well of them, so probably there are good and bad ones. They are heavy and ruggedly built, that's for sure.

Thanks Tim. Stuffy - is not what I'm looking for.

Can anyone tell me anything about Jupiter 332 model?
I mean I know it's a basic student horn but how would it compare for instance to Yamaha 354?
Are Jupiter student line durable enough?
How do they sound? I mean again I don't expect miracles but I need to know the tendencies.

You can still get LA Ambassadors in good/excellent condition for < $100 if wait and look. I had a chance a few years ago to get one within a 2-hr drive of where I live, advertised on Craigslist for $75. Single owner in his 80s whom I talked to and who provided marvelous detailed pictures of what appeared to be a horn in virtually as-new condition. Said he hadn't used it in decades. Before I decided to pull the trigger on it, he sold it to a friend of a friend.

I paid $125 on Ebay for my '47 Olds standard and then had some minor slide alignment done on it and a shallow dent removed from the bell. After I cleaned (and cleaned, and cleaned) the slide, it's close to a 10. So you can find these things, and a number of people seem to like them for lead jazz sort of stuff. It does seem to be true that with the original Olds #3 mouthpiece, you can get a sound that will cut through steel. The horn likes that mouthpiece.

On the infrequent occasions when I use the horn (about as often as I take my 1924 Buescher tuba out in public), I use my Kelly 12C mouthpiece with the sanded down shank and get a less "focused" sound and easier low range. It's a neat old horn (especially the '47 Standard variant), and it's my "I've got a tenor if I should for some odd reason actually need one" horn.

I have a nice 1950 Olds Recording for sale (see my posts for details) for $575 plus shipping. I still have (and play occasionally) the Ambassador my parents bought for me in 1955 or so. The Recording is by far the better of the two,

Thank you for all your responses.
Of course there is always a horn one step up and when we get quite a few steps up from the ground where most of us live in terms of financial stability we understand it's better to come down
I mean I perfectly understand that I get what I pay for but my funds are extremely limited.

I'm gonna buck the crowd here and put in a good word for the Olds Ambassador. I still have my son's tucked away,( his beginner horn) it's from the late 50's, early Fullerton, with the round handgrip. It's a decent player, IMO, well balanced and the slide is very good. I prefer the sound and response over the Yamaha 354's and the 606's, although they are all fine student instruments. The slide, in weight, feels lighter than the Yami but a bit heavier than the 606 if I remember right. The plating has held up well (the student Kings do not) but the lacquer, no.
However, the slide is narrow so if you have even a "normal" sized adult neck, the mouthpiece will not fit comfortably. And the mouthpiece shank is a little smaller, so an Olds M.P. will fit great but any other small-shank M.P. will fit but stick out farther than normal.

Mamaposaune wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:06 pm I'm gonna buck the crowd here and put in a good word for the Olds Ambassador. ...
...
However, the slide is narrow so if you have even a "normal" sized adult neck, the mouthpiece will not fit comfortably. ...

Wait, wait, wait! What does it all really mean? Please stay with me!
Since I've never tried a trombone yet I can't understand a thing about this "narrow slide".

My neck? - I must confess. I have too long a neck. So long that I can't even find a standard violin chin rest!
If you take a look, most violin players are short-necked. This doesn't mean it's a must for violin playing but rather something that occurs naturally in the violin world for some reason.

So - should I be alerted about my potential problems taking up the trombone at all?
How do long necked trombone players manage to hold their trombones?

Please - I need a quick answer. ASAP!
What are the problems concerned with playing trombone with a long neck?
(Not a trombone with a long neck - whatever that might mean but a trombone player with long neck having any kind of associated problems playing the trombone.)

None that I know of.

TBoneHalfNote wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 5:49 pm Please - I need a quick answer. ASAP!
What are the problems concerned with playing trombone with a long neck?
(Not a trombone with a long neck - whatever that might mean but a trombone player with long neck having any kind of associated problems playing the trombone.)

A thick neck can be a problem, but a long neck? Shouldn't be an issue.

I can imagine what Mamaposaune ment above when saying that a MP will not fit comfortably. That assumes that a trombone always rests on a shoulder - right?
I went to Google pics and noticed that some longer neck tbone players don't rest their instruments on the shoulder.
Is there a variety of holds in respect to resting/not resting a tbone on one's shoulder?

TBondeHalfNote wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 pm I can imagine what Mamaposaune ment above when saying that a MP will not fit comfortably. That assumes that a trombone always rests on a shoulder - right?
I went to Google pics and noticed that some longer neck tbone players don't rest their instruments on the shoulder.
Is there a variety of holds in respect to resting/not resting a tbone on one's shoulder?

The neckpipe does not have to rest on the player's shoulder.

TBoneHalfNote wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:15 pm I can imagine what Mamaposaune ment above when saying that a MP will not fit comfortably. That assumes that a trombone always rests on a shoulder - right?
I went to Google pics and noticed that some longer neck tbone players don't rest their instruments on the shoulder.
Is there a variety of holds in respect to resting/not resting a tbone on one's shoulder?

There are two basic trombone mouthpiece sizes and variations on each.

Most student trombones take a small (regular) shank. However, Olds made trombones with a slightly smaller receiver and matching mouthpieces. A standard shank mouthpiece fits in an Olds receiver, but sticks out a little further.

The other size (used for symphonic tenor and bass trombones) is the large shank. Again, Olds made a slightly smaller large shank receiver for the Opera and some of the basses. Olds mouthpieces are a little smaller in shank to accommodate this. There are also the Conn shank (different taper, sometimes called a Remington) and some King large bores take a slightly larger mouthpiece shank.

Long neck? I NEVER rest my trombone on my shoulder. Neither should you. Just look at my avatar. FWIW, I have a standoff type pad for my viola because the standard instrument, even with an air pillow under it, is still too narrow to clamp between my chin and shoulder.

BG - should a smaller MP receiver + small MP shank on Olds Ambassador present any kind of a problem for an adult like me?
Also, when using a small shank MP (but not Olds) with Olds Ambassador will it present any tuning problems because of a longer shank compared to an Olds one?
Thanks for a tip on the 'standoff' for your viola - not sure what it means though. I'll Google it...

Forget the Ambassador. If you want to take up the trombone, get yourself a good modern student-model trombone. There are many great choices. Ambassador is not one of them anymore. Neither are Jupiters.

Look for these: Yamaha 352/354, King 606, Bach ??, Getzen 351/451

Yes, there are others but they are much harder to find. Find one of the above with a good slide and start playing. Play everyday. Have fun. Repeat.

Do they still produce King 606 in the US? Or are you talking of a used one?

TBoneHalfNote wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 3:44 am Can anyone tell me anything about Jupiter 332 model?
I mean I know it's a basic student horn but how would it compare for instance to Yamaha 354?
Are Jupiter student line durable enough?
How do they sound? I mean again I don't expect miracles but I need to know the tendencies.

While I've not played the 332, I have played the 432. The 432 is as nice, or nicer than the Yamaha 354 (which I have owned). It is just as well made as the Yamaha and sounds much the same. Neither too warm or too brassy. It's free blowing with a fairly easy high register. Like I say, it compares favorably with the Yamaha. I know the 432 is a bit more money than the 332, but not by much (maybe $100 when new). I'm pretty sure the only difference between them is that the 432 has a nickle-silver slide and the 332 has a brass slide.

BTW, if you get a Yamaha, try to get one with the nickle-silver slide. It's considerably nicer than the brass slide (less weight, smoother, more durable). I'm guessing your in Canada. Most of the Yamaha 354's sold in Canada had the nickel-silver slide.

TBoneHalfNote wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:44 pm BG - should a smaller MP receiver + small MP shank on Olds Ambassador present any kind of a problem for an adult like me?
Also, when using a small shank MP (but not Olds) with Olds Ambassador will it present any tuning problems because of a longer shank compared to an Olds one?
Thanks for a tip on the 'standoff' for your viola - not sure what it means though. I'll Google it...

I can't imagine it would create a unique problem. A standard shank mouthpiece in an Ambassador may wind up just a shade flat, but the tuning slide may have enough travel to compensate.

Potential problem is something called "reach" (distance from the mouthpiece to the slide tenon). If you look at my avatar, I'm playing a Martin Committee trombone with a rather small reach, and I'm a pretty big guy. Means I need to assemble it with an obtuse angle between the plane of the slide and the plane of the bell.

As for my viola, I have forgotten what they call it, but it clamps to the bottom of the instrument and has a foam pad offset about an inch (25 mm) from the bottom of the device.

TBoneHalfNote wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:53 pm Do they still produce King 606 in the US? Or are you talking of a used one?

Definitely used. These horns are all over the place. No need to buy new.

JohnL wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 6:09 pm A thick neck can be a problem, but a long neck? Shouldn't be an issue.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 20, 2019 7:46 pm ...
Potential problem is something called "reach" (distance from the mouthpiece to the slide tenon).
...

I've just reread the earlier posts and - oh my! - thanks to John I realized what Mama meant about the narrow slide and potential MP fit problem!
BG - thanks for your example with Martin. I now see what "reach" means.
Should it be that bad with Ambassador?

I also see they call it "neck clearance". I didn't realize that.
Naturally the slide should be narrower for smaller children hands and it makes perfect sense to me now.

Can anyone tell me please what's the difference in width between a "normal" average slide and a narrow Ambassador slide? Is it an inch? Half an inch? Quarter an inch?

Thanks to all for your replies - since I cannot buy off the US eBay due my PayPal account verification problems this topic is no longer of current interest to me.

Wow! PayPal was quick and nice. I'm back on track!
So please - tell me more about the Ambassador 'narrow slide' - how narrow actually is it compared to other student slides?
I'll reiterate my above question for comparison:
Can anyone tell me please what's the difference in width between a "normal" average slide and a narrow Ambassador slide? Is it an inch? Half an inch? Quarter an inch?

I think it is only slightly narrower, it is the same width as the rest of the line-up of Olds small-shank trombones, and may even be interchangeable with the more up-scale model bells. Some other older pro horns, such as the Conn 4H, also had narrow slides, and players back in the day made do with them. Some other student models, such as the Yamaha 354, have a slight curve in the neckpipe so if the Ambassador doesn't feel comfortable you can always sell and find something else. You'll probably be fine, keep us posted!

For what it's worth, I never owned an Ambassador straight trombone. Mine was with F and had a much wider reach than most student horns.

I wouldn't worry that the reach looks like the Getzen Slide Trumpet, which has a tight U-bend at the end of the slide and needs to be moved via a small nub soldered on. You probably can learn to deal with whatever the reach is. Unless you are thick-necked you shouldn't have a problem.

I had an Olds Ambassador (Fullerton). The slide was surprising light. The horn did play a little stuffy though. I ended up donating it. Not a bad horn though. If you don't want to caught up in the potential "mouthpiece shank problem" that goes along with an Olds, go for an Olds made in the 70's. You can use a standard mouthpiece for the Special and the Recording F. att.

Thanks a lot for the clarification!

If you see one that interests you online, post a link so that folks can give you feedback about the horn

I picked up an L A Olds Ambassdor at a local pawn shop for $73. It had an almost brand new Protec case with it. I figured that the case was about worth the purchase. It has a couple of dents in the bell section that I plan to have removed some day, but otherwise clean, with good lacquer.

I've always been a Conn guy, although I own a Blessing B88 and a Yamaha BSL322R along with my Conn 48H. However, after a few of hours of cleaning the slide-- it had caked on slide cream from years ago that I had to steel wool off-- it actually turned out pretty good. The slide has a bit of scratchiness, but moves freely and it doesn't play badly.

I told my kids that I'll give it to the first grand kid that wants to play trombone. I have one that's nearing trombone playing age, 2 that are younger and 1 on the way. I probably will get a lighter plastic case than the heavy Protec and a replacement for the Olds 3 mp that is thin on plating, but otherwise I think it will make a good beginners trombone, especially since my kids won't have to spend a dime for it.

I've always thought the Olds Ambassador a sturdy, usable horn that sounds as good as you do in most settings. My experience with the Fullerton models has been better than the seemingly-heavier Los Angeles vintage. If you can find one with a good slide, give it a shot.
My current "beater" horn is an Olds Studio, which seems to be pretty much an Ambassador with a slightly bigger bell. $26 from eBay. Job done.

My $29 ebay Ambassador is really a pretty decent horn. If other posters are correct when they claim that the metal in Ambassadors is thicker than the metal in professional horns, I would infer that the harsher and less complex sound produced by the Ambassadors is the result of the thicker metal absorbing more overtones than the metal of the thinner horns. I read once that the reason Olds put “tone rings” on the Supers is that the metal of the bell was too thin to be engraved. Don’t know if that’s true. For those who don’t have a Super, the “Olds” engraving is on the tone ring

I’ll have to get out the ball micrometer this weekend and measure the metal thicknesses of the Ambassador and my other horns. Maybe that’s the explanation.

From many replies I gather that Ambassador is not at least worse than the majority of student horns.

On Brassreview someone mentioned that "It's a good Jazz horn either".
I don't know what people mean when making such claims but I must tell you that sounds convincing
Perhaps Jazz is less demanding in terms of clarity of the tone so that any horn could work in that setting. I also suspect that the reviewer simply meant the small bore size of Ambassador.

dxhall wrote: ↑Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:18 pm My $29 ebay Ambassador is really a pretty decent horn. If other posters are correct when they claim that the metal in Ambassadors is thicker than the metal in professional horns, I would infer that the harsher and less complex sound produced by the Ambassadors is the result of the thicker metal absorbing more overtones than the metal of the thinner horns.

I don't think so. I think the sound difference we think we hear is caused by listening to beginners play them. Or, from not being used to a .485 bore.

Thicker metal (if it really is) will always have less effect on the wind column sound, not more.

TBoneHalfNote wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:08 am
Perhaps Jazz is less demanding in terms of clarity of the tone so that any horn could work in that setting. I also suspect that the reviewer simply meant the small bore size of Ambassador.

I think that's a common misconception. Why would Jazz be less demanding in terms of clarity of tone?

Not sure about that. I bought the Ambassador because I was curious about its sound compared to the sound of better horns. For $29, why not? Anyway, I have several times played a piece on the Ambassador, and then immediately played the same piece with the same mouthpiece on the ‘41 Conn 24h or the ‘45 King 2B. The difference is what I described - the Ambassador lacks the complex overtones of the other horns, and produces the “cracking” sort of tone much more easily than the other horns.

There’s kind of a vibe to the Ambassador, though. The Ambassador was one of (perhaps the) horn of choice for high school students in the US for several generations. Makes me think of the 1950s.

The Olds small-bore trombones from the 1940s to the 1970s (in order of increasing price: Ambassador, Special, Studio, Super, Recording - all with 0.485"/0.500" dual bore, but slightly varying materials and components) were all made carefully in the same factories (Los Angeles and then Fullerton) and have proved to be sturdy and robust - even the "student" model Ambassador. They do not all sound the same, but share a strong family heritage. You can still find excellent examples of all these models on the used market at (sometimes very) reasonable prices. They may not be the "latest thing," but they play very well for what they are (small-bore trombones!).

The standard mouthpiece for all was the Olds 3, which works well, but is too small for some players. Standard small-shank mouthpieces from other manufacturers can also be used, but do not seat into the "undersized" Olds receivers quite as far, so some players will slightly "shave down" the mouthpiece shank to fit the Olds receiver. Others just accept them as they are, and (perhaps after pushing in the tuning slide slightly) enjoy making music à la Olds!

My take: Ambassadors are fine - and often a great bargain - but the Studios and Recordings are better if you can find one, for only a little more $. Try an Olds - you may like it!

I was looking at Olds as I've been looking into getting a small bore f attachment bone on a student budget for jazz and pep band due to confined spaces. That's actually been harder than I expected.

In terms of non-Olds mouthpieces, you can't go too big on these horns (Ambassador or the higher end models). The Olds #3 really is what the horn "wants", but it very likely will give you a "brighter" sound than what you are looking for if you want to blend with more contemporary horns (like in a quartet).

"Too big" definitely includes something the size of the 6 1/2 Bach. It doesn't come close to working reasonably on my '47 Olds Standard. My Kelly 12C is a Bach clone and is noticeably different in terms of the sound (and low range, particularly) than the Olds #3. I haven't tried a 7C, but suspect that this may be a bit "big" for my horn as well.

I kind of stumbled across the Standard. There don't seem to be quite as many that show up compared to the other variants, and the distinctive look from the "serpentine" braces was done only for the '46 and '47 Standards. I originally thought that "Standard" was a reference to a kind of "medium quality" horn (like "regular" or "average"), but old advertisements make it clear that it was offered by Olds as the "industry standard" of pro-level horns. In the mid-late 40s, at least, it was the #2 pro-level horn in the line-up (behind, as I recall, the Recording) and in today's US $ would be equivalent to an over $2,000 instrument.

You'll also hear a lot of people say that the Olds plays "bigger than it is". I think there's definitely something to this and is likely attributable at least in part to the dual bore slide. There are quite a few examples on YouTube of old Olds horns being played (including by Paul Newman!), and you may get an idea of the typical sound of these horns from those examples.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:37 pm The Olds small-bore trombones from the 1940s to the 1970s (in order of increasing price: Ambassador, Special, Studio, Super, Recording - all with 0.485"/0.500" dual bore

All except the Recording. Those are .495"/.510"; just a little larger all the way through.

ghmerrill wrote: ↑Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:09 am"Too big" definitely includes something the size of the 6 1/2 Bach. It doesn't come close to working reasonably on my '47 Olds Standard. My Kelly 12C is a Bach clone and is noticeably different in terms of the sound (and low range, particularly) than the Olds #3. I haven't tried a 7C, but suspect that this may be a bit "big" for my horn as well.

I find a 7C seems to work pretty well, but YMMV.

I kind of stumbled across the Standard. There don't seem to be quite as many that show up compared to the other variants, and the distinctive look from the "serpentine" braces was done only for the '46 and '47 Standards. I originally thought that "Standard" was a reference to a kind of "medium quality" horn (like "regular" or "average"), but old advertisements make it clear that it was offered by Olds as the "industry standard" of pro-level horns. In the mid-late 40s, at least, it was the #2 pro-level horn in the line-up (behind, as I recall, the Recording) and in today's US $ would be equivalent to an over $2,000 instrument.

Olds used the "Standard" name on various configurations from the 1920's up until the early 1950's. In the post-WWII era, it slotted in right below the Super in their lineup - still a pro horn, but without all the expensive nickel silver and bronze (red brass) - though the Standard still had nickel silver braces and cork barrels. Literature from '47 shows the Super, the Standard, and the Special - the Special was what you'd call a "basic pro" horn - very little nickel silver. Within a couple years, the Ambassador had been added at the low end of the line and the Studio had replaced the Standard. The Recording isn't part of that family - it's a bigger horn (.495"/.510" vs. .485"/.500").

JohnL wrote: ↑Thu Jan 24, 2019 10:52 am

Posaunus wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:37 pm The Olds small-bore trombones from the 1940s to the 1970s (in order of increasing price: Ambassador, Special, Studio, Super, Recording - all with 0.485"/0.500" dual bore

All except the Recording. Those are .495"/.510"; just a little larger all the way through.
...
The Recording isn't part of that family - it's a bigger horn (.495"/.510" vs. .485"/.500").

Thanks, JohnL, for the correction. I presume that even the Recording was supplied with the Olds 3 mouthpiece.

As far as F-attachments, the Olds Ambassador "bass trombone" (as it was called in the 1950's) had a larger dual-bore slide (0.510"/0.525" ?), and was supplied with a slightly larger Olds 1 mouthpiece, which has a larger throat than the Olds 3. Same shank, though, so the Olds 1 works well on the non-F-attachment Olds trombones for those who want a bit larger mouthpiece that fits the receiver.