TromboneChat

Hello,

I have been taking lessons from a grad student at our university. Today he said he had been talking to the brass professor about me and the fellow said, "invite him to join our trombone choir." So, I got invited to join a trombone choir.

(yea! first a community band, now a trombone choir. Now if I can only get into a dixie jazz group like Tuba Skinny, I will be in trombone heaven).

But, the director wants all the trombones to be large shank .547 F's. I don't know why, nor do I care. I want to join the group, not critique it. But, I don't have a large bore trigger trombone (I have a .508 and .525, both straight). However, I am not at all adverse to getting one. Actually, I am excited by the prospect of a new and different type of horn and a group to play it in.

I'm interested in getting one of the Yamaha trombones listed in the topic heading and I am thinking new (unless a like new "mint" shows up on ebay): A Yamaha 620 (around $2200), a Yamaha 448 (around $1999), or a Yamaha 548 (I have been unable to find a new price, but I will guess it would be around $1999 as well).

(and at this point, I will mention that Yamaha is the brand for me. I have two Yamaha's already, I bought my kids Yamaha trumpets, I have a Yamaha piano, a Yamaha bike, a Yamaha guitar, Yamaha speakers, and I once drove a Yamaha skid steer loader. I trust Yamaha. Yamaha has never disappointed me. So, I want to get another Yamaha. One of the cheaper Yamahas.)

Any experience or comments on the three models I am looking at?

I am guessing that all three horns are equal in quality of materials and construction.

If the 620 has any advantage over the other two (even if it is just a nicer case), the extra $200 isn't an issue.

On the other hand, if they are the same horn but for some chrome trim on the tuning slide or something, two hundreds bucks is two hundred bucks.

And the 548 is the wild card. I can't find a price on line, so I am guessing it may be a model Yamaha offers to its full line, non-internet, dealers. Well, if the horn and price are competitive with the other two, I don't mind supporting a full line dealer one bit, I would prefer it. (if I can find a dealer that has one)

And then there is this: I don't know a darn thing about F-Attachment horns, but I do know that the 548 looks different than the 620 and the 448. The loopy tubing in back is different. The 548 has an inner loop that pokes out well past the larger outer loop (like the Yamaha 8820) while the 620 and 448 back tubing loops are close together (like the Yamaha 882).

Do these two different styles have names? Do they have differences in tone/performance?

My guess is that if one design were better than the other, there would only be the one design, not two. I do prefer the look of the 620/448 as it looks more like what I think a trombone should. But, if the protruding inner tube of the 548 is special treat in a economically priced horn, well, that is mark in favor of the 548.

Any help/advice?

The 620 is basically the 448 with more nickel silver parts, so it should be more durable, for the least. The 620 also has two F side tuning slides, which help in emptying condensation. The 620 has mechanical valve linkage, while the 448 has string. Some like mechanical for their tight action, but some hate it for the clanking sound they make when they are old and worn. Some like string for the quiet action and ease of adjustment, while some hate it for that reason because they don't want to mess with string adjustment, and you have to have spare string around. The string is cheap, though. According to Yamaha, the bell construction method also differs between 400 and 600 series, but I don't think that would make significant difference in the sound.

The 548 is an open-wrap step up horn, with gold brass bell and mechanical linkage. The pricing should be a bit higher than the 448, but lower than the 620.

Concerning the wrap, Yamaha's closed (or you can say semi-open) wrap is pretty open, with no tight bend. and the valve is also open, so there should be little if any change in resistance between the closed wrap of 448 and 620 and the open wrap of the 548. I normally prefer open wrap for the ease of oiling, but they needs more space and more care, as they stick further to the back than that of the closed wrap. The 548 also has a wrap I would call "far open": the wrap is quite narrow (comparing to horns like 882OR, which have a wider wrap) and thus makes it stick far back, so prone to damage especially in tight space.

If I were you, and if I have the money for 620, I would go with it. But the safest way is to try all the horns, and also the other horns you did not mention, as many as possible.

I have owned examples of all 3 models. I think the 620 is significantly better than the others. It is an excellent horn.

(Or you could buy the 882GOR I have for sale! It is even better!...)

If you'd consider used, you can purchase a good condition YSL-882O or GO for around $1800 stateside.

I have a 548 I like it, plays well, in general isn't the most open horn I've played. In your price range I'd just get a used xeno.

Thanks, fellows. I appreciate your advice.

sirisobhakya, I really appreciate the details you provided. Thanks for taking the time to help.

greenbean, I would appreciate more information on your horn. Perhaps you could PM me or lead me to a listing?

I am in no longer quite the rush to get a new horn as I was last night as I just got an email from my instructor and I can have access to a school horn for a while in order to see how it all goes for me (Conn 88H).

I expect I will be getting some hands-on experience with some different horns in the next month or so. I did play my instructor's Shires briefly (forgot the model), and compared to my 630, it felt like a two ton truck. (I kind felt like I was strapping on battle armor) The slide felt huge. And it took more air than I was used to (I made it through the drill, however

That brief experience has left me wondering, however, if, in the long run, I would just be more comfortable with the narrower slide and more compactness of a 620 or if I would get used to the wide slides and bigness and come to not even notice what now feels like clunkyness.

For sheer fun, I like playing my light, zippy 891. I love the tone of my 630, but that sporty 891 is a blast. I know large shank triggers are bigger and heavier for a good reason, and that's what my new band wants, but I am a little apprehensive about the air requirements of a big horn. I'm used to my smaller ones. But, in that regard, would a 8820R take more air to finish a musical passage than a 620? I am not sure what "more open" means, but am concerned it might mean "sucks more air out of you". I don't have enough comparative experience to know, but I think I'm comfortable with resistance.

Any tips, advice, perspective is appreciated. Thanks.

In general, a large bore trombone will use more air then a medium or small bore instrument. This can be moderated by leadpipe and mouthpiece choice to a certain extent, but I do not believe any of the instrument in the title of your post have removable leadpipes. The only way to know for sure is to try the instrument you're interested in and see for yourself.

On another point made earlier. I have a Yamaha 682, which was the predecessor of the 620. It has the mechanical linkage. I've had it for some 30 years and the trigger is as smooth and quiet as when it was new (and it was great then). It's very cleverly designed so that each of the several bearings operate only on one axis so you don't have to deal with the lateral movement a ball and socket might experience.

PaulT wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:35 am But, in that regard, would a 8820R take more air to finish a musical passage than a 620?

The amount of air used to finish a passage CAN be the same. You can fix the flow rate of air yourself (i.e. blowing with the same amount of air), but it will be the sound that is not the same. It may sound more hollow, it may be quieter, it may lose the "edge" you have with smaller horns. Conversely, the less resistance (openness) means with the same, usual pressure with which your body is familiar, you use more air subconsciously. In other words, it is easier to blow harder with larger bore.

Comparing the 882OR with the 620. Both horns are .547" tenorbass (meaning tenor with F attachment), but the 882OR has a "reverse tuning slide": instead of both legs of the tuning slide going into the ferrules of the main horn like in most normal horns, the smaller leg goes outside and the larger leg goes inside, which make it "more conical" and reduce resistance. The bracing and the open wrap F attachment of the OR may also contribute to the reduced resistance. Moreover, I suspect that it may has more open leadpipe as well.

Thank you, fellows.

I'm going to struggle mightily to hold off doing anything until I get that 88H in my hands and spend some time in the Trombone Choir (and if the choir is filled with trigger horns, I should get some exposure to different types and models) ...

Meanwhile, I can't help myself. I'm googling, youtubing, and ebaying trigger trombones for all I'm worth (and it's fun).

Some things I've noticed:

- I can find all kinds of reviews and youtubes of Yamaha 8820s and 8820R. But there is nothing on the 882. It seems to be the lost stepchild of the Yamaha F's (with the 8820R being the golden boy). Am I drawing a conclusion based on limited data, or is the lion's share of interest (and sales) centered on 8820 and 8820R? Are they more popular?

- Every 8820 I have found on ebay so far is the gold brass version. There are no yellow brass ones. Is this a limited data situation that could be the reverse next week? Or were more gold brass models sold by Yamaha? Or are there more gold brass models being sold by owners?

(based on very limited and compromised by speakers youtube experience, I prefer the youtube sound of the yellow brass 8820 over the gold brass 8820G0's)


And a question. Is the balance point of open wrap trombones shifted to the back because of the protruding tubing or is is the balance the same?

There’s a nice deal on a Yam Xeno on the Forum.

PaulT wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:13 pm - I can find all kinds of reviews and youtubes of Yamaha 8820s and 8820R. But there is nothing on the 882. It seems to be the lost stepchild of the Yamaha F's (with the 8820R being the golden boy). Am I drawing a conclusion based on limited data, or is the lion's share of interest (and sales) centered on 8820 and 8820R? Are they more popular?

I have no experience with the 882, but I have with a 882UII, the JDM predecessor. Comparing to the 882OR, the 882UII plays brighter and more compact. I assume that this characteristic applies to the 882 as well, at least partially.

(The model name is O, not zero, from "o"pen wrap. The R is from "r"eversed tuning slide.)

Why does there seem to be more review of the O and OR than that of 882? You have to understand that nowadays, as people seek to minimize resistance, open wrap is much more popular that closed wrap.

PaulT wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:13 pm - Every 8820 I have found on ebay so far is the gold brass version. There are no yellow brass ones. Is this a limited data situation that could be the reverse next week? Or were more gold brass models sold by Yamaha? Or are there more gold brass models being sold by owners?

(based on very limited and compromised by speakers youtube experience, I prefer the youtube sound of the yellow brass 8820 over the gold brass 8820G0's)

I cannot say for sure. But I think you should wait and see. Gold brass seems to be more popular for bass trombone, but for tenor trombone maybe not.

PaulT wrote: ↑Wed Jan 23, 2019 11:13 pm And a question. Is the balance point of open wrap trombones shifted to the back because of the protruding tubing or is is the balance the same?

Can very well be. But if you compare across models/brands you cannot tell for sure.

The 882 is the semi-open wrap version of the open wrap 882O, but is for some reason more expensive then it new. I don't understand the pricing because usually the open wrap is more desirable and you'd think they'd ask more for it. Perhaps it is a production thing and they produce more of the open wrap and this lowers the price.

Some complain the yellow brass versions a to bright; I've owned a gold brass version for over 10 years and cannot complain of brightness.

norbie2018 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:14 am The 882 is the semi-open wrap version of the open wrap 882O, but is for some reason more expensive then it new. I don't understand the pricing because usually the open wrap is more desirable and you'd think they'd ask more for it. Perhaps it is a production thing and they produce more of the open wrap and this lowers the price.

Some complain the yellow brass versions a to bright; I've owned a gold brass version for over 10 years and cannot complain of brightness.

Strange. 882 and 882O are at the same price in Japan.

I have to admit that the 882UII I owned plays quite bright with considerable edge. But that is not necessarily a bad thing, at least in certain settings.

Not that you shouldn't get another horn if you want to (because more horns is always a good thing), but I bet that the director could not tell any difference between your .525 and a 547 in a blind listening test. Unless he is planning on putting you on bass bone parts, the 525 should be fine. I play in a bone choir that has between 30 and 40 players on any given day and people show up with everything from 2Bs to 547s (plus altos and basses and the occasional contra). The blend is great. This guy is listening with his eyes.

- I can find all kinds of reviews and youtubes of Yamaha 8820s and 8820R. But there is nothing on the 882. It seems to be the lost stepchild of the Yamaha F's (with the 8820R being the golden boy). Am I drawing a conclusion based on limited data, or is the lion's share of interest (and sales) centered on 8820 and 8820R? Are they more popular?

The 882 was not extensively marketed in the USA, where most of the Ebay auctions emanate.

FWIW, if the basses are any guide, the 620 will be lighter and more responsive than the Xenos. If you need to outblow a large orch, the Xenos might be louder, less likely to break up.

Chaichan,

What does UII represent when it is paired with 882?

(is it a tenor F? Yellow brass? other differentiating qualities)

And I am not sure what "compact" means in terms of trombone sound.

The 882U is the first gen Xeno horn. The 882UII is the second gen. Then the model name became only 882 when the line is revamped, around 10 years ago or so. I don’t know what U stands for, though.

All are tenor with F attachment. The 882U and UII differ in minor details, most notably the rotor linkage (the UII has miniball linkage). The 882 however has enlarged bell, counterweight, and general weight adding, among other things.

I’m with you, man. I’ve got 3 Yamaha trombones, 4 recorders, and a trumpet. I see nothing wrong being brand-loyal to a brand that’s never treated me poorly.

I keep a 448G in my classroom as the doesn’t-travel trombone. I use it anywhere I need a large-bore with F. It plays the same as a 620 for less $$$. Fine horn.

If you like the 88H, see if you can find a used YSL 643, which was their old-school 88H copy. Rumor has it Christian Lindberg played one for several years and told people it was an 88H.

Don’t get hung up on new/minty for an ensemble-specific horn. A good 448G or 548G will do just fine for what you need.

Does anyone know if any of these models have wide slides?

YSL-8420G
YSL-822Uii
YSL-820G
YSL-842O
YSL-620

Aw man, I totally missed this thread earlier. You guys had a discussion about the 882 (no suffix) without me!!! It's my favorite Yamaha tenor. I never really enjoyed the 882O or OR but all the 882s I've tried have been a match made in heaven. Would love to own one.

Anyway uh...back to your regularly scheduled program.

Ha! OP here. A lot has happened in a year and a half.

I bought a Yamaha 620 (.457). Wonderful horn. I love it.

And, a little later, out of curiosity, I bought a Yamaha 640 (.525 bore F attachment). Wonderful horn. I love it.

And I still have my Yamaha 891Z (.508), my Yamaha 630 (.525 straight), and a Yamaha 421G (.563). Wonderful horns. I love them.

Oh, and this year, I brought my 640 to trombone choir. It fit right in with those .547's just fine and dandy.

PaulT wrote: ↑Tue Jun 23, 2020 10:36 pm Ha! OP here. A lot has happened in a year and a half.

I bought a Yamaha 620 (.457). Wonderful horn. I love it.

And, a little later, out of curiosity, I bought a Yamaha 640 (.525 bore F attachment). Wonderful horn. I love it.

And I still have my Yamaha 891Z (.508), my Yamaha 630 (.525 straight), and a Yamaha 421G (.563). Wonderful horns. I love them.

I'd love to see a picture of all those Yamaha siblings together!

Ok. It would be fun.

First I have to de-clutter my music room and then come up with way to pose five trombones. Then I will ask how to post a picture on the forum. It may take a awhile, but I should learn how to post pictures on forums. It's on my "should learn how to do" list. I have iris and tomato pictures I would like to post on another forum. I've just never done it.

PaulT wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 11:36 am It may take a awhile, but I should learn how to post pictures on forums. It's on my "should learn how to do" list. I have iris and tomato pictures I would like to post on another forum. I've just never done it.

Normally I post the photo in Facebook, set to private. Then copy the image location to use with the img function on this site.

If you use the Full Editor you can upload pictures as attachments. I believe you are limited to three per post.

The IMG tag can be used for any image with a URL. Photobucket, Pinterest, etc. The need to label private or public varies with the hosting site. When I review the post and the image doesn't load I'll try to troubleshoot. Sometimes the "copy Image Address" in your browser doesn't collect the proper URL.